Barrel length considerations

Kia Ora Te forum.

After you all convinced me to ditch my 6.5x55 musings and knuckle down to a .308, I have spent the last couple of months weighing up which rifle I should get

I have largely settled on a Tikka T3X Lite. I know it's a little cliché, a little light and a touch more expensive than some, but its reputation for accuracy and the great action have won me over.

As I'm still waiting on the FAL to walk into the letterbox, I took a little research trip to some outdoor stores. One I saw had a T3X carbine. I've combed through Tikka's website for a month or more and haven't seen that term used. The salesman told me it was exactly the same except it had a 16 inch barrel instead of 20.

So, based on my little bit of knowledge - always a dangerous thing - this would make the rifle shorter (duh!) and lighter. But I'm worried about what I don't know. Namely, how will the shorter barrel affect accuracy, bullet speed, loudness and felt recoil? I will be fitting a DPT suppressor which makes it near enough to a 20 inch barrel again. Though, I suppose, if I just got a standard 20 inch barrel, the suppressor would extend it to 24ish inches.

Also, is the "carbine" designation legit? Has this outfit just gunsmithed a rifle, voiding the warranty?

For context, this will be a mostly bush and clearings rifle with the occasional shot over open farmland courtesy of some friends of friends. I will not get into long range shooting: 250 to 300 meters will be the maximum on game.

Thanks in advance.

.308 works very efficiently out of 16-20" barrels. 20" is about the max I'd run in 308 for a hunting rifle. 16-18" is the sweet spot for firepower and length.

Was it the lack of full pressure factory ammo that deterred you from the 6.5 x 55?

308s are good. I'd trim down a regular tikka to 18 or 19inches myself with factory ammo.

A 243 might also suit your purposes. They are easier to shoot well for some and plenty enough out to 300m.

6.5 creedmore or 7mm08 have reasonable amount of factory ammo as well.

The lack of full power factory ammo was the major factor.

I spent a lot of time considering the .243. In the end I was convinced by Nathan Foster's observations that there are no prizes for knocking down an animal with the smallest bullet. Particularly as a beginner, I will be grateful for the greater leeway afforded by the larger calibre.

As for the other calibres, the near ubiquity of the .308 is most of the reason that it feels like a good calibre for a new hunter.

Furthermore, sorry if it feels like constant nonsense updates...

But, I think I'll be shooting a 150 grain bonded bullet: either a Federal Fusion or a Sako Super Hammerhead. Whatever it is, it's definitely factory ammo. Any feedback, whānau?

Chur.

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Originally Posted by iambatman

Kia Ora Te forum.


So, based on my little bit of knowledge - always a dangerous thing - this would make the rifle shorter (duh!) and lighter. But I'm worried about what I don't know. Namely, how will the shorter barrel affect accuracy, bullet speed, loudness and felt recoil? I will be fitting a DPT suppressor which makes it near enough to a 20 inch barrel again. Though, I suppose, if I just got a standard 20 inch barrel, the suppressor would extend it to 24ish inches.


For context, this will be a mostly bush and clearings rifle with the occasional shot over open farmland courtesy of some friends of friends. I will not get into long range shooting: 250 to 300 meters will be the maximum on game.

Thanks in advance.

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so your three concerns : will it effect accuracy ...... no bullet will land whereever your scope is setup for
will it effect speed maybe but a 308 out to 300 would still be effective i dont believe 308 needs to maintain the high velocitys at range to suit your purpose
recoil and loudness will be cancelled out by the suppresor

so have at it

Iv had four 308s over the yrs,22in,20in,18in,16in.All with gunworks suppressers.The 16in quiet loud even with the suppresser on.Settled with the 18in tikka,nice ballance,quietish,little recoil and accurate.No problem tipping deer over out to 400-500yds using Hornady Superformance 150gr ssts.

In principle, shorter barrels can be more accurate but not enough to notice in a hunting rifle.
A shorter barrel will have less muzzle velocity than a longer (about 25 fps per inch) so some people try to make up for that by diligent reloading. Waste of time in my opinion. Just shoot and enjoy. You have energy to spare with the 308.
As you already know a short barrel is lighter, making it harder to hold still and having more recoil. The T3 is already a light rifle and will kick.
The main effect is that a 16" barrel is VERY LOUD. You will be committed to using a suppressor. If you have 22" you will be able to use it comfortably without a suppressor.
Once you use a suppressor, recoil and noise are sorted. So is any worry about shortness.

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Originally Posted by iambatman

The lack of full power factory ammo was the major factor.

I spent a lot of time considering the .243. In the end I was convinced by Nathan Foster's observations that there are no prizes for knocking down an animal with the smallest bullet. Particularly as a beginner, I will be grateful for the greater leeway afforded by the larger calibre.

As for the other calibres, the near ubiquity of the .308 is most of the reason that it feels like a good calibre for a new hunter.

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FUCK! Nathan messes with a newbie again!!!!! NoNoNo and bloody No!!! Use the right pill, learn animal anatomy and .243 is a more decisive killer than .308 on deer out to 300. There are a number of us on here and in the hunting world in general that kill plenty up close and far away, and really big deer/Tahr same result as small. Yes I'm biased, but my bias is based on my results with both cartridges. Some .243 factory ammo is great, Hornady Superformance 95SST and the cheaper Federal blue box 100gn two of the best offerings, either of those will cleanly kill any normal game animal out to a sensible distance.

Don't go believing horseshit about .243 bouncing off pigs bla bla bla. It is all about where you put it, people cock up with 300 mags and injure animals, no shortage of power there....

I hunt mostly open country, and I'm more likely to grab my .243 than .270 and my freezer stays well stocked.

Whatever you wind up with, figure out what ammo it likes, then buy plenty of it while you can.

Yes, I would say Fosters observations/assertions are fairly conservative. (Which is prolly a good thing)

I've recently been 'shocked' at how well a 223 was smacking deer and pigs @~200m night shooting for instance.

Greater range of factory offerings in .308, and if you can't get it anywhere they don't actually sell ammunition. .243 is usually available, but often with less options than the .308.

With the right pill positioned well .243 will drop anything, but .308 with the right pill drops anything betterer with a bit more tolerance for poor placement (although if you shoot the toes neither will kill). I've seen a 150gr .308 break up on the wallow mud shield on the shoulder of a stag, wide shallow wound and a lost animal. But a .243 even with a top grade bullet would not achieve anything better there - going to a stouter 165gr .308 pill by comparison has returned zero failures to date.

16" barrel is fine with .308, but make sure you get a suppressor and learn about caring for suppressed rifles...

But a light 16" barrelled 308 is going to knock you around, even with a silencer.
For a new shooter using factory ammo you should look at 243 or 7m08,
Followed by the question why do you feel the need to go down to 16".

Most guys who Bush hunt do so typically with 20-22"barrels as they use 1 rifle for a range of hunting.
I have been known to leave my silencer at home Bush hunting but I was carrying low power ammo.
Z

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Originally Posted by Longrun

Yes, I would say Fosters observations/assertions are fairly conservative. (Which is prolly a good thing)

I've recently been 'shocked' at how well a 223 was smacking deer and pigs @~200m night shooting for instance.

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Nathan Foster's opinions are whatever he has read somewhere else on the internet. Ignore that site in its entirety.

The .243 (this is based on actual experience not reading the internet) is an excellent killer on red deer, fallow deer, tahr and chamois. The fastest kills I have ever made have been with the .243 (or the .25/06)

As for this notion that you have "more tolerance for poor shot placement with a larger caliber"- this is also horseshit. You don't. Thats the reality of shooting large animals. A bad shot with a .243 is also a bad shot with a .308 or a .303. Let me put it another way - there is nowhere you can shoot a deer badly with a .308 and still kill it, that a .243 won't have the same result.
In fact, in my experience the .243 for both velocity reasons and bullet construction, will often do more damage to a deer than a .308.

How did they manage to talk you out of a 6.5x55? Great cartridge too. Easy to shoot and will go everything you want. Use Sellier and Bellot factory ammo, or start reloading. (120 grain 6.5 bullet at 2950fps will do everything you need and more.)

Look, nothing wrong with a .308, but a .243 is a vicious killer easily its equal on deer and doesnt kick hardly at all. But you are going to want a full barrel length for that one.

Dont get a .308 with less than 20 inch barrel. And you dont need a supressor to kill deer. You've got enough to carry.

Just get a normal Tikka T3 in .308 or .243, or if you can find one, in 6.5x55. Then you are in business. Then start reloading for whatever you get.

.308 great choice for the newbie in terms of killing power, bush buck ability and availability of factory ammo. I have a cheapie marlin X7 that works great with an 18" barrel, with a DPT suppressor, works great.
Dropped a deer on the spot at 50m just last month. My .308 kicks more than my .300wsm but still very manageable.
Just my 2c

N Foster, did give the swede a bit of a bad wrap, its and excellent calibour, more capable than a lot of the new 6.5 offerings. Reloading it in a modern rifle, to higher pressures with good pills is the answer.
Having said that, I have always had a 308 and it always gets the job done, a lot to like about the 308.

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Originally Posted by No.3

With the right pill positioned well .243 will drop anything, but .308 with the right pill drops anything betterer. I've seen a 150gr .308 break up on the wallow mud shield on the shoulder of a stag, wide shallow wound and a lost animal. But a .243 even with a top grade bullet would not achieve anything better there - going to a stouter 165gr ...

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now Im NOT saying this is B.S. any more than recent post of 5 shots in boiler room of fallow and it still alive was...BUT in your case you didnt recover animal so cannot for certain CONFIRM thats what happened.
Ive shot a fair few big piggies over the years,the 30/30 to begin with,mighty .270 later and a dozen with .223 two of which were in 140lb class.... they are not armoured tanks,put the RIGHT projectile in RIGHT place and they die...heck you can put he wrong projectile in right place and they die too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iambatman

Kia Ora Te forum.

After you all convinced me to ditch my 6.5x55 musings and knuckle down to a .308, I have spent the last couple of months weighing up which rifle I should get

I have largely settled on a Tikka T3X Lite. I know it's a little cliché, a little light and a touch more expensive than some, but its reputation for accuracy and the great action have won me over.

As I'm still waiting on the FAL to walk into the letterbox, I took a little research trip to some outdoor stores. One I saw had a T3X carbine. I've combed through Tikka's website for a month or more and haven't seen that term used. The salesman told me it was exactly the same except it had a 16 inch barrel instead of 20.

So, based on my little bit of knowledge - always a dangerous thing - this would make the rifle shorter (duh!) and lighter. But I'm worried about what I don't know. Namely, how will the shorter barrel affect accuracy, bullet speed, loudness and felt recoil? I will be fitting a DPT suppressor which makes it near enough to a 20 inch barrel again. Though, I suppose, if I just got a standard 20 inch barrel, the suppressor would extend it to 24ish inches.

Also, is the "carbine" designation legit? Has this outfit just gunsmithed a rifle, voiding the warranty?

For context, this will be a mostly bush and clearings rifle with the occasional shot over open farmland courtesy of some friends of friends. I will not get into long range shooting: 250 to 300 meters will be the maximum on game.

Thanks in advance.

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Greetings @iambatman,
I understand your reasons for considering a change from the 6.5 x 55 and think you are on the right path with the .308. I would like to make a suggestion that you don't abandon your interest in the 6.5 x 55. As you have discovered decent ammo is hard to get due to the US chronically underloading the cartridge. This is easily solved by handloading but even here it is not easy. Good load data is sparse and often contradictory, even in the same data set. US reloading dies do not match the chamber well and of course projectiles in 6.5 are hard to come by at the moment. So why do you ask am I putting in a good word for the 6.5? It is because I have found that loading for the 6.5 x 55 is very rewarding. The cartridge is easily the equal of the .308 when loaded to its potential, and I am not talking about Roman Candle loads either, but it is not for the novice. I started handloading over 50 years ago and lusted after a 6.5 x 55 for years until I got my first one about 1990. I have to say that the 6.5 has taught me more about handloading in those 30 plus years than all of my other rifles put together.
In short get your .308 or whatever you decide on but don't give up on owning a 6.5 x 55 some time in the future.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Originally Posted by flock

N Foster, did give the swede a bit of a bad wrap, its and excellent calibour, more capable than a lot of the new 6.5 offerings. Reloading it in a modern rifle, to higher pressures with good pills is the answer.
Having said that, I have always had a 308 and it always gets the job done, a lot to like about the 308.

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you say what???????

feed the swede the partitions as per knowledgebase...and it is great I believe is what was said....


the whole which cartridge debate has been going on since stones n spears were getting chucked at saber tooth tigers..... and the where you hit em is more important that what with since then too.

the notion that a .243 kills better than a .308 or vice verse is crap..pure and simple..... to be clear,if shot up the arse the .308 with heavy projectile would be better choice and SHOULD kill better /cleaner (will be messy) as the bigger/heavier projectile should travel far enough to get to vitals.....and the .243 poked into crease/meat saver shot should deliver more whollop than a slower heavier pill from .308....but both will kill animal......and and AND if you fed your .308 a 100grn projectile the point is moot...same case,same projectile weight.
BOTH will work fine.
the .243 shoots a bit flatter and a bit lighter on recoil
the .308 shoots heavier projectiles and can penertrate a bit better from poor angles......

as for one being more forgiving than the other....taken in context it hold merit.....a .224 fragile projectile going fast if hits point of jawbone or into neck missing bone MAY deliver enough stunning shock to immobilize animal long enough to finish it off whereas a big slow heavy projectile in same spot may zip through cutting narow path as no resistance to work against and animal will walk away wounded.....
flip that over and the fragile .224 going fast (or any really fragile projectile for that matter) into solid meaty bit MAY blow up giving shallow wound with animal still very mobile VS big heavy or more stout projectile will bore on through hopefully breaking bone and reaching vital bits....
its all swings n roundabouts....
Ive blown up a few fragile projectiles on bigger animals when caught out with wrong load in chamber and shot instinctively in a hurry,Ive also poked narrow deep holes into the wrong place on animals....... making good of a bad situation means you still get animal and hopefully fix your cock up quickly.
flock is correct,there IS a lot to like about the .308
there is also a lot to like about the .243....go back 25 years and for smaller statured shooter,ladies or youth and it was THE recommended cartridge...what has changed the most is the advent of suppressors to drop noise and recoil.... now a lot of bigger cartridges have been dropped down into same niche.

Barrel length. It’s easier to chop more off as apposed to adding it back on…
And another big .243 fan here.

I reload and shoot them both. Lots to like about both. Only differentiator for me is on big bodied animals where I sometimes don’t get exits with the .243. Difficult to say the .308 would always be better on the same shot because you can’t directly compare, but I prefer the heavier pill in these situations.

There both good, learning is part of the journey. Different folks arrive at different destinations….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Don't overthink it. A T3 308 win at 16" (with suppressor) and factory ammo will do exactly what you ask of it. As will many other rifle/cartridge combinations.
Get it and get out hunting.

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Originally Posted by Shearer

Don't overthink it. A T3 308 win at 16" (with suppressor) and factory ammo will do exactly what you ask of it. As will many other rifle/cartridge combinations.
Get it and get out hunting.

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Agreed. Only addition I would make is a 16" 308 is basially a 30-30. How often are there threads on here about getting velocity out of short barrels?. News flash, the easy way is don't cut below 20".

A 20" barrel is carbine lenght and actually not very long.

LOL, a question about barrel lengths has become a full blown 243 vs 308 debate! I own both and for me the 243 is ideal for meat hunting; it’s plenty of gun for hinds/spikers/yearlings (the 308 is a bit overkill on smaller animals IMO), and because it shoots pretty flat you can quickly place an accurate neck shot and minimise meat wastage. The 308 is what I use in the roar or in big country when a bit of extra down range energy might come in handy; it will also accompany me on a sambar hunt this winter. Both perform well on game. I have more experience with the 308 and I have found it to be very effective; it’s a rare for an animal to run, they normally get poleaxed. In terms of 308 barrel lengths I would go 16in if it’s a dedicated bush rifle, and 18-20in for an all rounder. Recoil is stout in light rifles but a suppressor and limbsaver sorts that out

Greetings, grandpamac.
I should have been clearer, I've given up on the 6.5 Swede as my first rifle. I agree with you that I am still a fan of the cartridge, particularly if I was to hand load.

I still harbour ambitions of owning, reloading and shooting a Swede. But it certainly won't be my first rifle. That will be a .308, although many are making a strong argument for the .243.

I will throw in my 5 cents worth ....
243 is a most capable cartridge.
Will do the job no question. Penetration isn't an issue. Was drilling perfect holes in 12mm steel plate with an old Parker Hale 243 using ppu soft points at 100 mtrs. Less recoil but need the longer barrel.
I currently use a lightweight 16 in tikka 308 as my bush gun with dpt suppressor.
Kicks more than 243 and on smaller goat/fallow sized animals at close bush ranges can be devastating and do lots of damage but can destroy alot of meat in the process. My 45/70 did far less meat damage funnily enough.
That's also the reason I bought my black semi 223 years ago to avoid so much close range carnage.
If you go the same route with 308 and run a dpt you will need at least one extra baffle to help tame the noise and recoil and will end up with a barrel around 20 plus inches long but if want it suppressed and solely as a bush rifle working through tough scubby shit I find the shorter barrel a godsend if suppressed. But I also have other rifles for more open hunting.
So in my opinion if you want a bush basher go shorty suppressed 308 but be prepared for a possible extra loss of meat over a 243 , depending entirely on shot placement of course but body shots will incur much more damage from my experience.
If you want a pleasant to shoot, accurate, popular (for a reason)all rounder caliber for more open shooting as well and don't mind the extra barrel length can't go wrong with 243 . In most hands probably more accurate also .

If you can't decide between a 243win and a 308 win, get a 260 or 7mm08. All the same parent case, some more popular than others.
If you shorten any of them you will loose more MV/inch of barrel cut with the smaller bore diameter. ie 243will loose the most, 308 the least per inch shortened.