"Classic" scopes - Reliability and functionality??

Recently I scored a set of the very stylish Talley quick detach "Brno" rings and I'm planning to use them on my Brno Model 21 8x57. I regard this old girl as my "goto" Tahr rifle, or when I anticipate having to shoot something requiring a bit of knock-down . . . its shoots 170gn Hornady's exceptionally accurately and with very good downrange ballistics - light, powerful and utterly reliable - its a Mauser 98!

Anyhoo its currently scoped with a good quality late model Jap 2.5-10 scope - functional enough but hardly in keeping with a classic "pre-war" euro rifle !!

Time to put something a bit more appropriate on it when I change the rings - but as I want to be able to rely on it in tough environments (last trip it got to live in a sand and water in the bilge of a pack-raft, no ill effects but it was pushing the limits). I have a couple of Kahles S2 2.3-7's and I've never had one fail "on the hill", but I think thats only luck, as I know of others that have fogged or otherwise crapped out.

So - thoughts and recommendations on a scope for a classic (pre 1970's??) - something in the 2-7 or 3-9, with top notch glass, and bullet proof reliability. Compact (well not big anyway) and 1.0" or 26mm tube (I can have the rings reamed).

I suppose another way of asking the question is - are the S&B's, Zeiss and Hendsolt scopes all of the same vintage better or worse than Kahles (which are relatively more common and still repairable as close as Aussie)

For those of us that can remember back to that era, the european Kahles and Pecar were fairly common but expensive for weekend possum trappers and meat hunters, then Leupold, Redfield, and Weaver were a second choice. All american made of course.
Must be an old Pecar 3 - 9 steel tube 1inch around somewhere. Mine cost around $320.00 back in 1978 and sat on top of the Sako in steel rings and was pretty much bulletproof

To be frank the older scopes aren’t anywhere near as waterproof, and obviously the coatings nowhere as good as more recently. My humble opinion- the Leupy gloss VX 1s eg 3-9x etc are best compromise on a period rifle...Charlie

I agree, a new scope will give the reliability and quality in keeping with the spirit of the rifle.
Perhaps a fixed 6x S&B Klassik ? Made not too far from Brno.

You need a period correct meopta 3x in the proper mount


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I suggest , and maybe not in the spirit of what others are saying, but .. the rifle is your go to for tahr,, it is accurate and your are obviously very happy with it.
In that case I would simply swap the japanese scope [not that there is anything wrong with it] for a modern tastefully sized euro in keeping with the origins of your rifle.
This in my opinion will enable you to have the best of both worlds.

On the other hand , if you were going to retire the rifle then lets find a euro of that period and only bring it out on sunny days.

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Originally Posted by jakewire

I suggest , and maybe not in the spirit of what others are saying, but .. the rifle is your go to for tahr,, it is accurate and your are obviously very happy with it.
In that case I would simply swap the japanese scope [not that there is anything wrong with it] for a modern tastefully sized euro in keeping with the origins of your rifle.
This in my opinion will enable you to have the best of both worlds.

On the other hand , if you were going to retire the rifle then lets find a euro of that period and only bring it out on sunny days.

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Thanks - that's a nice way of thinking. A 6x42 might be a good solution. There are a couple of beauty euro 6x's for sale in aussie just now. A 6x Leupy would work too.

Or a 1.5-6 Kahles, best of both world, old school look and reliability, more modern construction and coatings.

went out to range and used my .22 with a fixed 6x M8 loopy today.......first time Ive used it and holy smoke its lovely glass.... as is my wee fixed 4

I'm in much the same boat with the upcoming Parker Hale project. Garyp has some old school mounts but nothing old and vintage for it. It will get what I have In the meantime though, but I was thinking a modern euro scope would be ideal

The early kahles scopes were / are very good and tough with their steel tube - But the lenses are ground to a thin knife edge so they do chip with impacts. A fixed 6x Swaro, East German Zeiss, or Kahles period scope would be very good imo

Either a Pecar or Kahles 6X40 would be ideal.

I have a slightly later model Pecar Champion 'moving image' in this config to co on my Sako Vixen.

Quite light, good dimensions.

Would avoid any variable from that era as the mechanisms are nowhere near as strong as on a modern scope, by working it too hard you can throw out the reticle focus, point of aim and even parallax if unlucky.

Pecar scopes are very nice to use but expensive to get fixed, if the parts are available. How about a Meopta E3 3-9x42. These turn up now and again, usually at a very good price. They are obsolete in terms of current production (they look the part of the late 20th century) but the image through the scope has that Euro crispness, the body is steel and the adjustments work well. Another possibility is a Sightron 3-9x42 SII Bluesky. These are also not in the current lineup but do turn up now and again. The factory support is excellent and the scopes are plain, functional and very good.

I personally wouldn't rely on any steel tubed scope older than the 1990s.

Some of the fixed power swaro's from the early 90s look like older scopes but are nitrogen filled I think?

I would echo @norsk and recommend something late production with a steel body (both of these are, but aluminium eyepieces).

A Swaro will have the edge in reliability as it is a single steel tube with a glass-etched reticle whereas the Pecar has an interchangeable reticle system which is also a possible point of failure.

Both scopes feature turret locking screws which help with holding zero, bloody small slotted screw so don't ruin it, or lose the caps! (usually see these with 'replaced' caps as the original owner forgot to put them back on and left them somewhere.)

It's best to aim for the later 'Champion' model Pecars which carried both the name and white circle with dot in the middle (see pics). This is important as a 'Champion' scope will require a corresponding reticle type (magnification and 'champion' or old).

Pecar was (from what I have been told!) a very interesting company that only made riflescopes, they tried ideas such as the switchable reticles but never became as established as Schmidt & Bender, hence their decline.

Their scopes were famously issued on Enfield Enforcer Police Marksman rifles (4-10 variable model).

An example being sold at an inflated 'dealer' price: https://www.emma-rifles.co.uk/produc...rifle-scope-2/

This should give you the old Pecar webpage: https://web.archive.org/web/20060113...car-berlin.de/

The closure of Pecar and prevalence internet auctions means that Pecar scope prices are absurdly inflated. Instead of being a £70-80 scope for a classic rifle or beginner to use, they are changing hands on eBay for around £300 odd. Too many old timers with nostalgia and money to burn, most of them being old Oz roo shooters!

And hence a knock off trying to capitalise on the good name, what a joke! https://pecaroptics.com/

Thanks for the suggestions Guys. I've had several Pecars (still have two) but in my hands they haven't been very reliable- I can recall at least 4 failures over the years, two foggings, a reticle breakage and one that grew fungus.

I do have an IOR 4x with superb optics that I could use (sort of along the lines of what Jakewire was suggesting) but a bit more magnification would be nice.

For a long while I used Dads 1960's Hertel & Ruess 2.75x 26.5 post and rail with a 26mm steel tube.
It was on his Sav 99.
A few years back it started to cloud up, (5-10yrs)
I tracked down the brand to it's new owners Gerhard Optik who make the Nickel-ag ultra high end scopes for hunters and Olympic running target shooters.
They where happy for me to send it back for repair.
They stripped it, recoated and polished all the glass, changed all the seals and cleaned the retical erector system.
Now while the outside is betten up, looking thought it the glass is better than new with modern coatings.
Cost about $300-$350 Euro which I was very happy with.

After that story my point is that there are a lot of similar scope on eBay, contact the manufacture to see if they would service it, replace seals and gas etc, then buy one and ship it to them.
Z

@Tentman I still have that factory refurbished khales 6x42 if you're interested.

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Originally Posted by Hunty1

@Tentman I still have that factory refurbished khales 6x42 if you're interested.

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Hmmm - sounds interesting, what was the reticle??

@Tentman , I have been down this route myself , and if your rifle is a shooter you really need a modern reliable scope , I use a Z3 series Swaro on my Model 21 and it looks fine , I also use a Leupold from the 70's on another one and that does not look out of place either but the swaro is probably the best , just my 2 cents .

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Originally Posted by Bos

For those of us that can remember back to that era, the european Kahles and Pecar were fairly common but expensive for weekend possum trappers and meat hunters, then Leupold, Redfield, and Weaver were a second choice. All american made of course.
Must be an old Pecar 3 - 9 steel tube 1inch around somewhere. Mine cost around $320.00 back in 1978 and sat on top of the Sako in steel rings and was pretty much bulletproof

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I have one of these Pecars