Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Black Watch Alpine

User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 4 of 4
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By Gloves

Thread: Definition of "free standing" pistol grip - mssa vs a-cat ..new deign ideas.

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2018

    Definition of "free standing" pistol grip - mssa vs a-cat ..new deign ideas.

    This may have been covered before but i'll see what you guys think, so as defined by police it says

    "Free-standing grip, in relation to a firearm, means a grip that

    Is designed to be gripped by the whole or most of the trigger hand of a person firing the firearm; and
    Is (if any trigger guard is disregarded) structurally connected to the firearm at only one point; and
    When deployed, protrudes from the firearm in a direction that is closer to being perpendicular to the barrel than to being parallel to it; and
    Is neither
    Example of what are considered not a pistol grip

    a thumb-hole stock; nor
    a stock of the type commonly described as a Dragunov stock or Dragunov-style stock
    The direction in which the grip of a firearm protrudes from it must be determined in a general, practical sense

    Having regard to the attitude that the trigger hand of a person firing the firearm (while gripping the grip as it is designed to be gripped) would assume while the person is firing the firearm; and
    Without having regard to the shape of the grip."

    I've seen the stocks that connect from the bottom of the grip to the back of the buttstock with a piece of rod, is there anything that would stop you from making a grip similar to the magpul grip that hugs the radius at the back of the reciever, having a lug off that just behind the buffertube endplate for the rod to attach and then have the rod go straight back?? Technically this would be structurally attached at two points and no different from the rod from the bottom.


    I have the ability to 3d model and a pretty decent 3d printer to play with! throw some ideas at me! the the current nz acat stocks are ugly asf..(except the hera, its okay..)
    dannyb likes this.

  2. #2
    Member Cordite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    NZ Mainland

    I have mused over this in the past.

    Free standing, let us see. Two words...

    "Free" - that is, thumb hole stocks handles are not free. A screw-on piece of steel at the bottom of a grip going back to be screwed on to the stock is pushing your luck, it has to be integral to the design, not just a cosmetic bolt-on feature.

    "Standing" - an oblong box is standing on its short end, but is lying on its long side. | standing __ lying.

    With the current AR focus, how could you create a grip?

    1. must not protrude further down than the trigger guard, or at least must maximally "bulge" down (see note above on "standing" vs "lying"). Basic English.
    2. this leaves very little grip and so requires a rethink.

    Just go to GC and ask them to give you an AR15 with paddle stock and mini-magazine, request they remove the pistol grip to render it non-MSSA before you receive it from them.

    You can make a grip which protrudes further BACKWARDS, with the aim of aligning your MIDDLE finger to work the trigger, and the main grip provided by the thumb/index fingers.

    Ridges can be made, to ensure the thumb and index finger have good purchase on the firearm, to prevent it from slipping upwards relative to the hand, or hand sliding downwards, whatever way you see it. A guy somewhere in the USA sells small L-section pieces of aluminium to rest index finger on for the purpose of "Point Shooting" pistols, to give you the idea. Also has additional benefit of index finger not sliding down into its old role as trigger finger, instead of being usefully employed as a pointer & gripper finger.

    The middle finger has more straight tendons and can work well / better for the trigger.

    Having the short grip thickened/lengthened backwards will also ensure your now straightened index finger tip is not resting on the magazine release!!!! Tadaah!

    The centre of the concavity for your thumb/index finger web space must be somewhat higher, towards the barrel centre line, so as to assure the thumb/index fingers naturally come to rest higher up on the receiver, not down on the trigger. (Diagram below does not show this well).

    As for non-free standing, have a forward extension below the trigger, replacing the screw-fastened lower trigger guard thus providing a lengthwise shallow groove for your ring finger to rest in (left and right sides to make grip ambidextrous). This must be of continuous construction with the rest, so even the grip you have made cannot be said to be free standing. AR15 receivers without a screw-in lower trigger guard would thus not be quite as suitable for this conversion as the forward anchoring has to be integral to the handle, not a cosmetic bolt on.

    Little finger, let it curl round below the "grip" to provide some stability. You may insert a sling loop on the underside of the grip for a short hand sling to prevent loss of the gun, this can conveniently be placed just behind where the little finger is located.

    Here is a quick sketch. You get the idea. It seems a bit naff but may well provide advantages over a free standing pistol grip, cf the point shooting advantage, the ideal thumb/index pincer grip, and the better trigger middle finger. Should be as allowable at service rifle shoots as those equally naff thumb hole stocks and you might even come to prefer this grip over factory stock.

    Name:  AR15 No Handle.jpg
Views: 466
Size:  31.5 KB

    Look forward to see what you come up with. You certainly have the right tools for the job.
    Last edited by Cordite; 28-07-2018 at 12:27 AM.
    "I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book." Groucho Marx

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Interesting ideas! I'll have a play over the next few days
    I kinda just realized that if it even bolts on to just the stankard mounting point and then also bolts into the buffer tube endplate then by their own definition it's not a pistol grip..even if funcation ally it's exactly the same.

  4. #4
    Member Cordite's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    NZ Mainland

    If bolting onto the buffer tube endplate implies a kind of thumbhole arrangement, a thumbhole design will prevent you from moving your right hand sufficiently forward and around the grip in a clockwise motion to obtain a proper grip - your thumb needs to have full freedom to go further round the left side or the grip will not be even.

    No problem with a vertical grip as such, the key word is "free standing" which defines the pistol grip - so basically draw a line straight back from the lower part of the lower trigger guard and below this nothing, +/- a conveniently placed sling/loop.

    The loop will secure the hand to the area, but cannot be called a free standing grip as it is certainly not free standing, but it will give the shooter the confidence of not losing the gun if unaccustomed to the grip. The design I suggest widens the lower trigger guard to include the ring finger purchase groove. Could even have a oblong perforation through to the other side for the ring finger to grip through (ambidextrous), as long as the lower trigger guard is fixed to the receiver by the mag - which renders it non-free standing.

    About how far further back the hand needs to be (what with the fatter heel of the grip) the index finger should rest short of the magazine release, and the middle finger should still be sufficiently forwards to rest against the front of the trigger guard.
    "I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book." Groucho Marx



Similar Threads

  1. "Short-Pig" ideas - Short barrel 22rf semi-auto??
    By Tentman in forum Firearms, Optics and Accessories
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 06-06-2017, 06:37 PM
  2. MSSA length and "Approved" A cat Police Policy
    By Chilli_Dog in forum Off topic
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: 26-03-2017, 04:21 PM
  3. Evolve LED Light Bar For Offroading in sizes 18",20",28",36",43"
    By pighuntingnz in forum Outdoor Transport
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 27-12-2016, 08:05 AM
  4. New Gun Laws, Free Standing Pistol Grip Question.
    By Skeet in forum Firearm Safety
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 27-12-2013, 04:38 PM
  5. "Life Hacks" - Camping ideas
    By Dougie in forum Other outdoors, sports, huts and tracks
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-06-2013, 08:06 PM

Tags for this Thread


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Welcome to NZ Hunting and Shooting Forums! We see you're new here, or arn't logged in. Create an account, and Login for full access including our FREE BUY and SELL section Register NOW!!