Ecat hunting rules

So after having a nice chat with an arms officer in my area he explained it to me clear as day that once you have your Ecat then you can use your MSSA for WHATEVER legal reasons you want, and not just what was on your application form.

I was curious to this as alot of people have varying opinions on using an MSSA for blatting a herd of goats or such if you didn't have hunting on your application originally.

Have any of you ever had issues from police officers about supposed unlawful use of an MSSA because of vague text in the legislation?

No issues, you can do what ever you want within the law. Hunting, 3gun, plinking anything goes.

Go for it. I used mine last weekend.
I tend to use 5-10 round mags on my MSSAs when bush hunting, not because I care what others think of, but I find 20-30 rounders a pain. Bulky and heavy (esp .308).
But if its a goat shooting mission in more open ground, I'll take a bigger mag.

Never had a issue

My AO tells me that there are restrictions and the police written arms code backs that up.
Whether or not a cop would ping you for it is a whole different story.

What are these restrictions?
On my application I put 'and whatever other lawful activities take my interest from time to time'.

The whole point of the e cat process is to make sure you're trust worthy enough to be, go figure, trusted. Isn't it....?

Jexla is correct that the arms code says:

Military-style semi-automatics (MSSAs)
MSSAs are used for hunting, pest control, and target
shooting. The reason for which the endorsement is sought
becomes a condition of granting the endorsement. This
means that you must obtain Police approval for each
activity you wish to undertake with your MSSA.

However, the arms code is not the Arms Act, but looksie in section 32 about permitted uses for the endorsed MSSA.

32 Conditions of endorsements
(1) It is a condition of every endorsement made under section 30
that the holder of the firearms licence—
(a) observes, in respect of every pistol or restricted weapon
or part of a restricted weapon in his possession, such
security precautions as are required by regulations made
under this Act; and
(b) ensures that every restricted weapon in his possession is
both rendered inoperable by the removal of a vital part
and maintained, by reason of the removal of a vital part,
in an inoperable condition.
(2) Any member of the Police may, on the direction of the Commissioner,
impose, as conditions of an endorsement made by
that member of the Police under section 30, such conditions
with regard to the use or custody of the pistol or restricted
weapon (being conditions additional to those specified in subsection
(1)) as that member of the Police thinks fit.

I note that the 2005 version of the arms code has no mention of conditions of use.
So this was probably changed in the 2010 Arms Act amendments.

Attachment 48513

I thought that was the point of the first firearms licence application.
Never really understood the point of the E cat one.

Restrictions being things such as for 3-gun or pest control (She said she'd need a signed letter from a land owner to say I would be doing pest control on their land) and hunting can only be added if applied for via the AO which then goes to the head office to confirm or deny, but cannot deny it unless they have a lawful reason.

What Dog just said is exactly what I was meaning, forgot to mention that in the arms act there is that clause in there.

Just what you need, an AO making rules up as she goes.
There is no requirement for land owner approval in the code or act.

Which is why I had the following in my application:

Why will you need MSSA firearms?:
Hunting, service rifle shooting, collecting, target shooting, hand load development,
bench rest shooting, personal interest.

Describe your shooting interests and activities:
Large and small game and gamebird hunting, service rifle shooting, collecting,
target shooting, hand load development, bench rest shooting.

But remember dogmatix that they have the power to impose those restrictions and can require you to do anything they want to have them remove them, the act does not specify in which way the restrictions must be lifted.

Is your AO a sworn Police Officer under direction from the Commissioner?
Ask her nicely to confirm this.
If not, she is overstepping her role. But not doubt if you complain, they will get a uniformed member to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's.

"Any member of the Police may" Pretty sure they're members of the police even if they aren't sworn officers.

Fairly certain they have a police number thingy too.

Just apply to add all the additional reasons as conditions, as you say, they can't deny unless there is a lawful reason preventing it.
Its just creating more paperwork for themselves.

The Arms Code is not a legally enforceable document.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk

But the Arms Act is, noting section 32, as per my post #7.

Does that mean I should have put "Extreme Barrel Heating" on my application of possible uses?
On cold days, I find there is no better way of warming up cold hands.

Does an offence exist for using an MSSA for hunting? How is a special use defined, decided and recorded? Is it meant to say it on your license? Has anybody ever been charged for using and MSSA out side the scope of special reasons?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

Go for it. I used mine last weekend.
I tend to use 5-10 round mags on my MSSAs when bush hunting, not because I care what others think of, but I find 20-30 rounders a pain. Bulky and heavy (esp .308).
But if its a goat shooting mission in more open ground, I'll take a bigger mag.

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That and it's completely pointless unless you're going to be hosing down rabid packs of marauding fauna.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jexla

I thought that was the point of the first firearms licence application.
Never really understood the point of the E cat one.

Restrictions being things such as for 3-gun or pest control (She said she'd need a signed letter from a land owner to say I would be doing pest control on their land) and hunting can only be added if applied for via the AO which then goes to the head office to confirm or deny, but cannot deny it unless they have a lawful reason.

What Dog just said is exactly what I was meaning, forgot to mention that in the arms act there is that clause in there.

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I just said I was going to use it for hunting on DOC land... if they want give them a copy of a doc permit. ....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Simon

Does that mean I should have put "Extreme Barrel Heating" on my application of possible uses?
On cold days, I find there is no better way of warming up cold hands.

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Should put "best opportunity to empty my wallet while leaving a smile on my face (and no not via a prostitute), and I don't play golf"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ryan

That and it's completely pointless unless you're going to be hosing down rabid packs of marauding fauna.

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Likes on the streets of Jo'Burg. ;)

No offense intended but if I saw someone in the bush with a MSSA and a big mag hunting deer I would laugh my bloody head off!! You are either a hero or a shit shot :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gibo

No offense intended but if I saw someone in the bush with a MSSA and a big mag hunting deer I would laugh my bloody head off!! You are either a hero or a shit shot :D

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Isn't that we have all agreed upon, that hunting with a big mag is pointless? :wtfsmilie:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

Isn't that we have all agreed upon, that hunting with a big mag is pointless? :wtfsmilie:

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Yes, I was supporting your agreement :D

Here is what my hunting AR15 looks like, wears a different pistol grip now though.

Attachment 48534

Plus I'm making a foam holder, so that when taken down to suppressor, upper and lower, it fits in a day pack for when I go fly fishing.
No need to carry rifle and rod over shoulders when walking in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gibo

No offense intended but if I saw someone in the bush with a MSSA and a big mag hunting deer I would laugh my bloody head off!! You are either a hero or a shit shot :D

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ill be in the bush with a 20 round ar mag in a couple of days, come have a giggle. it will probably only have 5 or so rounds in it though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by res

ill be in the bush with a 20 round ar mag in a couple of days, come have a giggle. it will probably only have 5 or so rounds in it though

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Don't need to attend mate I can just see it now :) I obviously did offend some

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gibo

Don't need to attend mate I can just see it now :) I obviously did offend some

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whats the point of the internet if you can't offend people?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by res

whats the point of the internet if you can't offend people?

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Point of internet = P O R N

;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dogmatix

Jexla is correct that the arms code says:

Military-style semi-automatics (MSSAs)
MSSAs are used for hunting, pest control, and target
shooting. The reason for which the endorsement is sought
becomes a condition of granting the endorsement. This
means that you must obtain Police approval for each
activity you wish to undertake with your MSSA.

However, the arms code is not the Arms Act, but looksie in section 32 about permitted uses for the endorsed MSSA.

32 Conditions of endorsements
(1) It is a condition of every endorsement made under section 30
that the holder of the firearms licence—
(a) observes, in respect of every pistol or restricted weapon
or part of a restricted weapon in his possession, such
security precautions as are required by regulations made
under this Act; and
(b) ensures that every restricted weapon in his possession is
both rendered inoperable by the removal of a vital part
and maintained, by reason of the removal of a vital part,
in an inoperable condition.
(2) Any member of the Police may, on the direction of the Commissioner,
impose, as conditions of an endorsement made by
that member of the Police under section 30, such conditions
with regard to the use or custody of the pistol or restricted
weapon (being conditions additional to those specified in subsection
(1)) as that member of the Police thinks fit.

I note that the 2005 version of the arms code has no mention of conditions of use.
So this was probably changed in the 2010 Arms Act amendments.

Attachment 48513

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Hence why I put all those reasons on my application and also added "And Any Other Legal Purpose".

Just to cover all eventualities. :)

And having had a MSSA "E" endorsement from inception I can say I've never had any issues using E cat firearms for any legal reason or purpose.

Cheers
Pete

Yeah, pretty much back to my point I made before, it takes a cop to feel the need to (and understand the law in regards to) lay those charges for it to become an issue.

It's one of those things you just don't want to make noise about. If nobody says you can't do something, just keep quiet and do it.