My rifle doesn't even know what caliber it is :wtfsmilie:
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My rifle doesn't even know what caliber it is :wtfsmilie:
Original Bushpig.
Spanish Mauser FR8https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c018c33ae7.jpg
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Back in the day the salty old bastards in Mt Isa QLD taught me not to pass up on the occasional bush pig, cos the slighty ugly girls tried that much harder and would probably teach me a thing or two. They did. When I came to NZ some 20 yrs later imagine my confusion when I overheard blokes in the pub openly talking about their bush pigs, how handy they were in the tight stuff, how the speed wasn’t quite there but they still hit hard. This, I thought, is concerning. Luckily all was revealed, but I have chosen not to adopt the term, as it takes me back to times and places best archived permanently... so carbine it is.
I didn't have time to read the whole thread but a good option is the Bergara BA13TD take downs. I own one in the 308 16.5 inch stainless. It's is a tack driver. Then there is no gunsmithing cost as it is already threaded. It's a lot shorter than a bolt action. It's trigger is pretty impressive for a rifle that can be had for $799. It has a fats twist that will stabilise any bullet more or less and don't let that fool you it's shoots 150g PPU into 1.5 inchs every time when I broke in the barrel and it loves the 168 ELD M Superformance factory load with all groups shot going sub MOA expect 1. It's still 2620-2650fps depending on the lot number. I have a load for the 225 ELD M. Going 2340fps that should hammer just fine tuning seating depth now. And it can also be used as a perfect platform for subs. Plus a take down is pretty nice.
Some beautiful bush pigs been posted in here boys getting me really keen on them aye, Even the waikato ones hahahaah
Yeah. That would be a complete pig in the bush.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW
I did agree saying suppressors helped a bit. I find elec muffs very good, nothing is perfect though but I can celebrate differences from you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Never claimed to be normal. As I got better I shot less, better shooting so fewer shots needed and got more selective, simply didnt feel any need to shoot just because I had the opportunity. If you shoot everything when you have the opportunity then that's another difference we can celebrate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
I think you mean "Ballistics".Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
The best powder for velocity is dictated by the bullet /cartridge relationship irrelevant of barrel lenght. Standard pistol cartridges are small in case size, large in caliber and generally light for cal bullets. That is a recipe for fast powder. A slower powder would work better but you simply cant fit enough of it in the case. Put that pistol cal in a carbine and the recipe will remain the same. Take a larger cartridge say 7mm08, compare the published data for both pistol and rifle, you will find the powder recommendations will be around the same in burn rate. IIRC I think 2208 is very popular for both.
i could drag up the graphs of chamber pressure , bullet travel , area under curve etc Like I have in the past but I cant be arsed doing it all again so do some research and find out for yourself or cling to your misconception.
Thats weak, you would have been better leaving that blank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Are you a tree stand hunter? I have been aware of some claims that modern electronics can filter out background noise and wind noise, but wearing muffs while actively hunting is just unpleasant.Quote:
I did agree saying suppressors helped a bit. I find elec muffs very good, nothing is perfect though but I can celebrate differences from you.
It was an obvious point that you seem intent on missing sort of like the noise issue being significantly lessened above. You ought to work out the difference between hunting and shooting.Quote:
Never claimed to be normal. As I got better I shot less, better shooting so fewer shots needed and got more selective, simply didnt feel any need to shoot just because I had the opportunity. If you shoot everything when you have the opportunity then that's another difference we can celebrate.
Well I just might have to... because I don't see anything other than talk about it, rather than some actual testing of the specific idea. Chamber size may have material effect on the suitability of powder selection in terms of how fast it is, but what I haven't seen is say a direct comparison between the same 22" barrel and 16" barrel with faster and slower powders and the same projectiles in order to determine what exactly happens... in say a 708/308 of the type of rifle that we are talking about here.Quote:
I think you mean "Ballistics".
The best powder for velocity is dictated by the bullet /cartridge relationship irrelevant of barrel lenght. Standard pistol cartridges are small in case size, large in caliber and generally light for cal bullets. That is a recipe for fast powder. A slower powder would work better but you simply cant fit enough of it in the case. Put that pistol cal in a carbine and the recipe will remain the same. Take a larger cartridge say 7mm08, compare the published data for both pistol and rifle, you will find the powder recommendations will be around the same in burn rate. IIRC I think 2208 is very popular for both.
i could drag up the graphs of chamber pressure , bullet travel , area under curve etc Like I have in the past but I cant be arsed doing it all again so do some research and find out for yourself or cling to your misconception.
While pressure and burn can be understood simply enough in theory, the effect of faster burn/slower burn, on velocity and acceleration in longer and shorter barrels with those different powders, is probably best established by experiment.
What may have be happening locally of course is that when the active promoters of the short barrel suppressed rifle concepts are building these things, they also tend to drop projectile weights when chopping the barrels... that makes the actual effect somewhat murky...
However when differing powders have different outcomes in the same length barrel with the same projectiles loaded to the same max safe pressures, it would appear irrational to suggest that is not the case when barrel length is changed. Your argument of course is that performance remains constant whilst shortened relatively speaking. I haven't seen that being obvious in my playing around..
Of course I have never suggested that I can regain all of the speed lost simply by moving to a faster powder. Just that a faster powder might be more efficient at getting faster speeds in shorter barrels everything else being equal.
I would like to see a specific experiment.. if you are aware of one.. but relying on load data from inconsistent sources is hardly conclusive..
I ran some numbers through quickload last night as I was working up some loads for a 16" barreled .308.
Its only a prediction of course, but I ran the numbers using a 175gr sierra matchking at max loads with both AR2206 and AR2208 powder. It was predicted that the AR2208 although a slower powder, still pushed a higher velocity than the faster burning 2206 through the 16" barrel.
You could of course fit more of the 2206 in the case so could potentially run a charge above the max published load and get more velocity then you could with the slower burning powder - as you can only fit so much of the slower powder in the case.
Just do it bro. Haters gonna hate.
16" mod 7. Shes 2.7 kg all up and not too bad to shoot. Deer out to 380 odd and gongs out till I run out of dial :D 165 NBT doing 2650 so plenty of grunt out to 500
Reason I wanted a pig was.....well anyone ever hunted the Kaimai's :D
Attachment 98733
short suppressed tikkas are still worth very similar money if you decide you hate it
not that you will. shorties are great
Completely off track but havnt seen any updates on your adventures? How's it all going?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
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@VTR, your M7 7Saum could look like this (or close enough, maybe 17-18" but with a Magnum DPT) get it into DPT and see if they will be happy to shorten and thread on the flutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
You whitnessed what a 17" 284 with Amax at 2700 can do, an 18" 7Saum will only be better that than, 2800+ fps probably. Get into it
If the OP wants advice on how to get a bush pig, look no further...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...1335532a4f.jpg
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Hey Chris,Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW
What would be the figures with a 125/130 grain bullet? as a lot of guys are using that weight class for the short distances in bush shooting.
I got 2995fps with 125gn Nosler ABs from my 16" Tikka using H335.
Sit down Sidney because this may come as a shock but you are not the sole arbiter of everything I do, feel or think, so what actually you mean is YOU ( Sidney) find muffs unpleasant,maybe others as well buy who really knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
I did spend some time in a tree on Stuart Is. I saw 2 deer but panicked when I realized I was in the bush with a rifle that was out of fashion and had a 23 inch barrel so didn't shoot. I did recover after some counseling and managed to completely fluke 3 white tail for the trip with my useless rifle. I think I even put a report in the magazine section here.
I hunt with a rifle so hunting and shooting are inseparably intertwined. Your interpretations of my reply's are perplexing , Have you been tested for dyslexia?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Let me remind you what you said, from post #43 "Besides, reloaders using faster powders can make up most of any speed lost from shortened barrels."Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
And from post #56 "Bullocks - try shooting slow powders through pistols and getting the same performance... everything is a continuum chap and slow powder performance gets optimised in longer barrels. Conversely faster powers are optimised in shorter barrels."
I'm not doing your research for you. Actually I have no problem with the thought of you continuing on in your beliefs as they are.
You can lead someone to water but......Quote:
Originally Posted by sneeze
I will just say.
Why would the cartridge care what length the barrel is.....it wouldn't.
If you are getting velocity "back" by running faster powder it is even more velocity you could have had in the longer barrel with the same load....you have gained nothing more than more pressure.
Its a strong human trait to cling to our first belief no matter how illogical.Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
What do you mean Willis! "The worlds not flat"!?:XD:Quote:
Originally Posted by sneeze
Our my first human belief "If Eve wore a leave I'm sure Adam wore a hole in it"!:thumbsup:
Nice set up you have there @Gibo:thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
looks more like a show pony than a bush pigQuote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
OK... Never let it be said that I remain polite when I don't need to.. you want play with words...?
You sound like a sensitive wee girl clearly irritated about the tree stand thing... the point if you were capable of getting it is that actively hunting with vinyl ear cups on is unpleasant... thats an objective truth whether you understand it or not. Whether you choose a level of discomfort or not is irrelevant to me, just don't bother telling me it doesn't exist.
My original comment was about shooting more often as you become a better hunter. Nothing to do with becoming a better shooter like you go on about. Shooting skill was assumed as a constant and wasn't at issue. Better hunters usually shoot more animals. Better hunter = more shots generally because being a better hunter generates more opportunities - simple maths. The fact that you choose to shoot less being a better hunter is irrelevant, it was a general comment and reflects a normal and average sort of reality. You come along obfuscating and completely missing the point. Try a little harder to follow along.
The next one is a cracker.. you even took the time to paste my actual words.... when I said that I never said that "ALL of the lost speed would be made up" that is entirely true. Last time I checked "most" and "optimised" do not qualify as "ALL"... but hey you can't even follow along with the general ideas expressed like noise reduction and more shots fired as you get to be a better hunter.
Given your general comprehensive difficulties, why would I take your analysis of more complex issues seriously? Anytime you can come up with some sort of relevant actual experiment I would be interested in seeing those results.... but I haven't seen any yet.
Seriously whats your problem mate? I couldn't give a toss whether you turn out to be right about the quicker powder/shorter barrel issue... its a side issue to the utility of suppressors. Losing 100fps with the same load in a 4 inch chop is inconsequential.
Yip, full blown safe queenQuote:
Originally Posted by Paddy79
You or the rifle [emoji16]Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
Sierra 125gr, 16" barrel vs 24" barrel with a variety of different powders.
ADI lists max charge as 50gr of 2208, which quickload predicts will go at 2869fps with 16" barrel. QL suggests same load will do 3152 with a 24" barrel
2206H, max charge listed as 49gr, which quickload predicsts will go at 2896fps. QL suggests same load will do 3186 with a 24" barrel
2219 max charge listed as 45gr, QL predicts 2851fps. QL suggests same load will do 3126 with a 24" barrel
2207 max charge = 39.5, QL predicts 2778fps. QL suggests same load will do 3023 with a 24" barrel
So we can conclude that QL predicts that the powder that will produce the most FPS from a long barrel, will also produce the most FPS in a short barrel for a given projectile weight.
I cant comment on if this would translate into real world or not but those are the predictions nonetheless.
I would think that real world FPS would be slightly higher than above as I kept the COAL the same as when I was messing with the 175gr load -- in reality the COAL would be shorter with the 125gr load, which will produce a bit more pressure and a bit more FPS. The general conclusion remains the same though.
Lead me to water then... Its not about the cartridge is it? The cartridge is a constant. Its about the powder in the cartridge...Quote:
Originally Posted by veitnamcam
Pressure, duration and acceleration all have some bearing on velocity, to suggest that there is no variation to relative performance, by vastly different powder specifications in different barrel lengths seems unlikely from a physics perspective. It may be insignificant or minor but none??.... wheres the direct evidence that can show us those results..?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Friwi
I was thinking about this and then I read @ChrisW’s numbers (thanks Chris)... I would have thought that those kinds of velocities (~2900fps) would be too messy with frangible bullets, lot of meat damage, big holes, at close range?
@Shearer, what do you see with the Accubonds? Being a tough bullet I expect they fly straight through the animal?
When I was a kid my Grandpa always went the ‘slow and heavy’ route for carbines at close range for woodland deer, so that’s what I’ve always done since with good outcomes, especially on big reds. I was planning on 165-180gr in my .308 18” that I’m getting done soon at DPT.
Any comments on why light for calibre is better other than just being faster?
The 170gr flat nose ProHunters go bloody well on deer out of a short 308 at close-ish range, say sub 150m. The 150gr round nose ProHunters likewise.
Because Bushpigs all require shortening of the barrel can I ask a question here about shortening fluted barrels .
Is there any problems associated with shortening fluted barrels in regards to fitting over barrel suppressors ?
Ken
I have a fluted 223 barrel for my 93Quote:
Originally Posted by Ground Control
It was 23"
I had it shortened to 18" a year or 2 ago. Lost a bit of velocity but kept accuracy.
If the suppressor has an isolator tube it wont make any difference if the suppressor is fitted correctly.
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It's important to just set up your rifle in a way that suits you rather than get a bush pig idea in your head
Find acompromise your happy with and go hunting
+/- 2 inches isn't going to matter
They’re great. When I get home I can send you the NZ Hunter articles. They’ve done a lot of research on the subject.
The only thing that will stop you from having the best bush pig in the world is the availability of cash, mines off at the moment being bedded into a carbon stock... ;-)
Attachment 98760
I respectfully disagree with you... and agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sneeze
That’s why I have a number of rifles ranging in barrel length from 16 to 26!
It was a commercial decision, designed to make a lot of money, and it has! Have you seen their price list?Quote:
Originally Posted by northdude
Good on them too!
I've not read all of the thread so apologies if this doubles up on any content. This is what I use for the bush and is a close to perfect for that as I've ever used. Bergara .308 with the barrel shortened to just over 16" and fitted with a DPT. I usually have it wrapped from supressor to but. Being a single shot it will always be shorter in length then a bolt gun as you don't have the action length. It is quieter then any bolt gun and completely safe to carry with a round in the chamber - just cock the hammer when your ready to go. It groups an overlapping hole at 100m with a 168gr factory load. The only thing I dislike is the spur on the trigger guard for opening the action which I think I'll cut off as the action can be opened by pulling on the front of the guard itself - the spur diggs into your back when carrying slung. I wouldent fire a pop gun these days without a suppressor. I use a 1.5-6 Zeiss or a H1 4MOA Aimpoint. Attachment 98761Attachment 98762
Looks like the farm not the bush @bing :P
Just Jealous mate :thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibo
Hi Gibo, That was one of a small group that came out of the bush to feed on the edge, dropped it in the bush and pulled it out - down hill :)
Im a big fan of shooting animals I can drive the quad or truck to.
nice portable rigs
Just pulling ya leg mate. Nice buck. I do my share of paddock harvesting too ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bing
