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This is a possible silly question, so go easy on the whipping please. Hypothetically, if one were to install a FAB Defense pistol grip onto an 18" barrel pump shotgun and it came up short of 762 mm by 15 mm, would it be a criminal offence in the eyes of the law? What would the punishment be and would knocking a muzzle brake onto the end of the barrel make it all legal again and worth the bother? Is there a know case where a person has been convicted and sentenced for been 15 mm short ..?
No, it’s not a silly question. It’s a stupid one.
The law says its 762mm. Not 762mm ish.
And dont go measuring it with one of those "special" fishing rulers or the rangefinder @Dundee has
If you do put something on the muzzle, a brake or extended choke tube etc, make sure its loctited on & can't come off.....
Apparently if you are close & unscrewing the recoil pad makes it short you are in trouble in the eyes of some....
Just don’t put a pistol grip only on a shotgun because it’s dumb as heck
sticking a muzzle brake on a shotgun.......do you not like your hearing or something????? by wanting something that short I asume you looking to use as bail gun and want it as easy to carry as posible???? find a 20" barrel and swap........ the novalty of pistol grip will wear off pretty darn quickly a .12ga has a fair old boot to them and not being shoulder mounted can be problamatic.
as for your last question.....yes but sheilahs dumping a fella cause its "just too short" probably isnt what you ment.
Muzzle brakes aren't even included in police's OAL policy.
Nothing to do with the latest post by FOUNZ on facebook about national MP Alastair Cook siding with the coppers to amend the act over sawn off and possible interpretations by said coppers?
There are no stupid questions. Well only the ones that were not asked. The fact that he asked shows he is not silly enough not to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
As a response, yes 15mm is too short. If it is not 762mm and it is capable of being fired then it is not long enough. It can be shorter than 762mm (in cases of take downs etc) but they must not be able to fire when taken down like that.
You clearly have a MUCH lower threshold than I as to what qualifies as stupid.
Let’s put his question into context.
‘Yes your honour, I know the legal drink drive limit is 400mcg (yes 250mcg blah, blah) but I only blew 415. Surely that means I should be okay.’
Or
‘Yes your honour, I know theft is not legal, but it was only $15. That’s so close to nothing that I should be okay right?’
Or
‘Yes your honour, I know rape is illegal, but I only used 15mm of my penis. That’s so close to nothing that I should be let go right?’
Actually, you know what, you’re right it’s not a stupid question. It’s a fucking stupid question. If I was a mod I would kill it. Stupid shit like that on a public forum about a retarded setup (I mean really, a pistol grip only on a short shotgun?? WTF!!!) does us all no good!
I agree all your examples shown are correct in that small amounts are still illegal. What I was getting at and what you may have missed, is questions that are asked and answered lead to more information prior to making a decision. I will use your second one as an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
‘Yes your honour, I know theft is not legal, but it was only $15. That’s so close to nothing that I should be okay right?’ He is not asking AFTER he has done this, he is asking "Your honour, if I take the $15 will I still get into trouble?" The answer is yes he will then he now knows not to take the $15. Whether he should have known before or not is questionable and a smart person would probably figure that out rather easily. But it is still better that he asked rather than make presumptions.
He is also asking if his idea of a solution would be acceptable in that situation (again probably not) but I will concede it would have been smarter to ask an AO rather than the internet....
I thought they were? A semi permanent muzzle device like a muzzle brake that is either loctite on or pinned is acceptable? That's why ase utra and OD bore lock cans are great for ar-15's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
Argh, shucks. You sound like the law,Boss!
Live a little. Life is supposed to be fun sometimes, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
I'm sure that if you were in a position of power, you'd kill a lot of things that went against your approval. As for a short gun with a pistol grip, it probably wouldn't do you good. In the army and police force I work for, we even had 7.62 full auto 13" barrel machine guns(R2) with pistol grips and folding stocks. They did the good guys a world of good in vehicles and for those parachuting into shit. You're right though, it was a fucking stupid question. Won't happen again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
I was planning on duct taping a sofa cushion over each ear to deaden the sound...just like I always do when shooting a gun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
Righto. Thanks for that, explains it all. What on earth was I thinking..?Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
keep ya hair on chap,I was trying to give some warning /advice based on personal experience......yes Ive fired a .12ga one handed and from the hip on a few occasions over the years (we are all young dumb and full of c#% at some stage) Ive split the web between thumb and forefinger twice doing so (slow learner).... Ive also owned and used shotties sawn off to JUST above legal length 780mm infact.... we used it in the scrub for wallabies...it was fun to carry,killed things well as I had put choke back into it so it was full choke patterning BUT it was as loud as hell and hurt ears no end .it also induced a flinch very quickly as it was just far too loud. we ended up sticking a hunk of pvc pipe over the end of it to try to take noise a bit further away....... it wasnt what Id call a user friendly weapon. sure you can wear earmuffs,but what about your dogs??? if not using it as a bail gun...why would you want to have it so short???? maybe you are shepherding on marakowhai station and are worried about them huge pigs getting ahold of your stock dogs......buy a rossi lever action in .44 mag and be done with it....or better still a cheap 7.62x39mm norinco and suppress it,still short and light but it wont stuff your ears. you can shoot the odd red/fallow/goat or pig out to 150 yards with ease.....Ive done the shotgun thing with pigs having grown up around Tokoroa pig hunters...a rifle is much much better.
At the end of the day though, this is still better than Telly, and its informative !
No, absolutely not. And anyone telling you otherwise will land you in hot water my friend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Square22
As police have said in their "Measuring length of MSSA Firearms classification approval" document:
"The length of any firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not “permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers, muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. In the case of rifled firearms (such as rifles and Pistols), barrel length will be determined by measuring from the muzzle to the bolt face (excluding anything attached beyond the muzzle), this means that the chamber is included in the measurement of the barrel, not just the rifled portion. The exception is for revolvers in which barrel length is determined by the barrel only and excluding the chamber. "
https://www.police.govt.nz/sites/def..._-approval.pdf
like the day I fired someone, followed all the rules, for stealing $6.70. At the multi thousand $ PG, the mediated asked me, before the mediation started, if you fired someone for stealing just $6.90, there better be a lot more to it, or it's going to cost you a lot of money! Alright for an employee to steal from you twice? Nope I won! But black and white fades in the best of people!Quote:
Originally Posted by timattalon
What firearms require barrel length measurement? I'm aware of overall length but not barrel length in the legislation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
Are you sure this has not been reconsidered? When was this dated?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
The reason I ask is because of this link from late last year:
https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...inimum-length/
Is someone from the kiwigunblog on here that could explain this a bit better?
Pistols on a B endorsement have to have a minimum four inch barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
That's not in law, but is something to do with the agreement between the cops and Pistol NZ I think.
There's a couple of approved pistols with barrels under four inches, but are approved because they are only designed for ISSF type target shooting.
@Jexla also https://www.pistolnz.org.nz/blog/759038
See what is said at the top of that link.
Not trying to start an argument at all, just trying to clarify. I think your document may be the 'old' one that the blog refers to which the measuring interpretation was later changed?
It makes sense to me as removing the stock (but not buffer tube) from an AR-15 rifle is probably faster than removing a lot of muzzle devices and it would also reduce the length. You would lose the detent pin if you removed the stock but the rifle would still be able to be fired.
If I had my way licensed firearms owners could have what they want, short/long auto/semi pistol/revolver etc. At the end of the day it's only 15mm and who gives a F**** But that's the law. Personally i think the punishment should be to fire a case of ammo (high velocity slugs) in a concrete room. Shotguns with pistol grips = F***ED hand.
You are one angry cat.:oQuote:
Originally Posted by 300CALMAN
They should be out there policing the traffic, or arguing about the Talmud.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
@Spanners Are there any pistol nz staff / kiwi gun blog authors on the forum ?
None (legally, see what systolic says below), it's the just way the police explained how they measure the end of the barrel.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
Basically right. Personally not aware of examples where under 4" barrels are approved however. PNZ agreed to this with police, so they treat it like they have some law to back it up. There's non PNZ clubs that have not agreed to anything PNZ have said.Quote:
Originally Posted by systolic
Alright, for one, the document I linked is on the police website so is far more valid than anything on any blog. Secondly it says:Quote:
Originally Posted by Square22
“To determine overall length of the MSSA the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it.”
Now, reading that it first says MSSA, so that excludes ALL A category firearms, then it also says "flash suppressor" so that implies 'flash hiders' only, not muzzle breaks or suppressors.
Thirdly, I'm a FOUNZ editor and a PNZ member who takes great interest in this stuff if that cuts the cake for ya :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Square22
The standard Sig Mosquito has a 3.9" barrel. Would have been doing everyone a favor if they didn't get approved though.Quote:
Personally not aware of examples where under 4" barrels are approved however.
That is cool that you’re a PNZ member, so am I and with all sincerity that is great that you are a FOUNZ editor and that you take an active interest in the law/gun politics. I do appreciate that the KiwiGunblog is only a blog but it does seem well informed. The same information however is also posted on that Pistol NZ Website link I sent you and I do put stock in what they say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
The same is also in the Deerstalkers newsletter http://www.wairarapanzda.org.nz/wp-c...newsletter.pdf
The Pistol NZ link I posted for you to look at states:
"On the 13th of September the policy position below was distributed internally and externally. Since then I have been asked to provide clarification as to the points to be measured from and to. To determine overall length of the MSSA the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it.
Mike McIlraith - Arms Act Service Delivery Group" – Posted September 2017
This contrasts with your link to the Police page which says:
Classification:
• MSSA firearms will be measured in their “reduced state” (buttstock folded or
collapsed) in order to determine their classification.
• Rifles and shotguns which collapse or fold, and which can still be fired in this
reduced state will be assessed for classification in the reduced state.
• ANY firearm which is less than 762mm will be classified as a pistol.
The length of any firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length.
It appears that the document that you refer to on the Police website which says length does not include a flash hider came out sometime in March 2017, and that a change, in that length does include a flash hider, came out from Police in September 2017.
According to Supt. Mike McIlraith this was sent to various groups outside and inside the Police, but that clarification does not appear to be on their website.
A lot of muzzle brakes (including the ones I have) are also flash hiders. I think they just say flash hider as that is a part of the definition of an MSSA. Whether it is a brake or flash hider, it surely is more important that it is “firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it”, but maybe that needs to be further clarified with Police.
As I said before I am not trying to start an argument, the only reason I asked if there was someone was here from the Kiwigunblog or Pistol NZ (I meant the people that run Pistol NZ) is I wanted to see their source document from Mike McIlraith. If anything it is the Police’s fault for not updating their website.
I'm going to be building an E cat AR-15 with an Oceania Defence QD can and I asked this very question on a thread (see link below) recently hence why I am so interested in it.
I haven’t read anything about A cats being measured differently and I suppose that is a question that should be asked to see if it the same as the way MSSA’s are not being measured (I.e if it is from the firmly fixed muzzle break to the end of the stock).
https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co....-length-43194/
Dude, you need to start reading what you're posting yourself.
"The length of ANY (THAT MEANS ALL) firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length."
Mcilraiths correspondence was done via EMAIL to the members of FCAF, nothing more.
Which he corrected the above saying ANY firearm is measured without any "attachments" with an exception for MSSA's ONLY.
"To determine overall length of the MSSA (That means ONLY MSSA's) the measuring should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it."
Therefore, I am agreeing, if you have an MSSA and it has a flash hider that makes up the rest of your 30" and you think you can prove that it is just that in court, you might do OK and you might not.
Chill brother, I know what I wrote :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexla
"The length of ANY (THAT MEANS ALL) firearm is measured without any “attachments” (whether or not
“permanently” attached (e.g. welding, pinned)), such as flash-hiders, silencers,
muzzle brakes, or barrel extensions. - It then goes on to talk about barrel length."
Is from that original link about Measuring length of an MSSA firearm you posted, this says nothing about MSSA's being measured differently. Your link specifically mentions Flash hiders which would indicate to me they meant an MSSA in your link as well.
I later found Supt McIlraith later clarified later in the year regarding MSSA's:
"should start from the closed or folded stock position to the end of the flash suppressor, providing the flash suppressor is firmly fixed to the firearm in such a way that a tool is required to remove it. "
If the Police have released this as an internal and external clarification (which is what Pistol NZ says they have done) I would think you can reasonably take that as their position on the matter. I was asking if there was any Pistol NZ people or Kiwigunblog writers here as I wanted to see the original email/letter.
Anyways you said it yourself said we agree about MSSA's :)
Proudkiwi, what a well thought out informative and intelligent way you have addressed Outlander's four questions. I believe it was Seven Hawking who used a similar method.Quote:
Originally Posted by Proudkiwi
I will re-word the single question posed by Outlander that you did address: How rigorously is the 762mm minimum gun length law enforced ? If I have a firearm 15mm shorter than 762mm will I be prosecuted. Using Police enforcement of the open road speed limit as an reference and the 5kmh or so allowed above that limit does the same apply to firearm length. 15mm/762mm = 1.968 % . To use the previously described analogy if I am prosecuted for having a firearm 747mm I should ipso facto be prosecuted for traveling at 101.968 kmh on the open road.
What about if he put a bayonet on the end?
Now there's a thought. Wonder what I could poke with it..?Quote:
Originally Posted by vulcannz
And you can be because you have still broken the law. The issue however is proof, and that requires accuracy. The testing equipment has to be certified, and there is also a margin of error tolerated by both the police and the courts, because your vehicle/speedo is unlikely to be completely accurate.Quote:
To use the previously described analogy if I am prosecuted for having a firearm 747mm I should ipso facto be prosecuted for traveling at 101.968 kmh on the open road.
That however is not the case with a 1mm short firearm. That is simply determined to not comply. And so it is still a stupid question.
Unlawful possession of a pistol is not something that you want to get charged with. Firearms under 762mm are deemed to be pistols.
Thanks for that Sydney, you have clarified the matter fully and concisely . By the way I don't consider Outlanders question stupid however when a lot of people myself included just did not know the definitive answer. What was stupid was me getting the decimal points in the wrong place in my calcs, at least the equation result was correct. Sorry bout that worked it out in my head while shifting electric fences - must have got a stray shock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney