JW 15, or any 22 LR accuracy - group size

I have a couple of JW15's and got to try a few different kinds of ammo through them. To be honest I think my shooting is a bigger factor than the particular ammo at the moment. I only had a 42m range and could get 5rnd groups to less around 20mm, most groups had a flyer from me pulling it (I think the trigger is the big downfall of my JW)

From what I could tell the CCI 40gr subs and the Killwell (Whinchester) subs grouped pretty much the same, although the 5th rnd of the Killwell wouldnt feed properly out of my magazine.

I also tried Power Point and Whinchester HV, I gave up on the power point as every second on would fail to extract, the HV seemed to group as well or maybe better than the subs (didnt get to fire as many with the kids in bed though)

My JW15 likes 42gn Winchester subs.

@mudgripz is the guy to talk to

My 2 cents...What most people often call "flyers" are not flyers at all. they are simply the true grouping of the rifle. it is human nature that we want to believe that our rifles are more accurate than they really are. We want to believe that these 3 tight shots are the real group and the last one that was is 1 inch off is a flyer. Personally I only consider a group of 10 shots to be representative of a rifle's grouping. 3~5 shots are too small as a sample group to count.

There are only 2 applications for a rifle which you care about its grouping, non-close range hunting and target shooting. If your rifle often gives you flyers, say average 1 flyer in every 5 shots, then it is no good for either. Think about hunting, you get to go out once a month, you drive for an hour to your mate's farm, you walk for an hour before you find a rabbit/magpie at 60 meters, now you are going to have 1 in 5 chance of missing because the "flyers". I once wasted about two years with a rifle that I thought had a lot of "flyers". I would always mentally blame the misses on the flyers. I have since shot other rifles, unbelievably, far fewer flyers!

This is not to say there are not real flyers - slightly out-of-spec or deformed rounds - they do exist and we all get them every now and then. But I think most ammos today (anything over 7 bucks for 50) are fairly consistent. Obviously the more expensive the ammo the more consistent. The most economical "accurate" 22LR ammo is Lapua Standard Plus, roughly 12 dollars for 50.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

. But I think most ammos today (anything over 7 bucks for 50) are fairly consistent. Obviously the more expensive the ammo the more consistent. The most economical "accurate" 22LR ammo is Lapua Standard Plus, roughly 12 dollars for 50.

---

Where do you get ammo at these prices lately?!

I buy from reloaders or serious shooters. The last I paid for CCI subs HP was about 70 for a brick (so 7 per 50), that was maybe 7 months ago. Last I checked Reloaders still had Lapua Standard Plus 95 dollars for 500 round tin. Serious shooters had them for 12 dollars a 50 packet.

One point I would like to add. When checking a rifles accuracy / sighting in, you need to take as much shooter variation out as possible. This means using bags, blocks, bracing, Anything so you can get to the point where you can "hold" a rifle on target for minutes. If it is supported enough, it should sit there by itself on target.

Next thing that may or may not be part of the issue is the scope. First test for you to check is set up the rifle at that same distance, look through the scope, and line upon the target. Now once settled and holding very steady, move you head around a bit. Just your head. Does the cross hair move around on the target? If this happens, if you do not get your head back in exactly the same position, the cross hair will line you up at different point on the target thus opening the group up as you move your head. This effect is usually referred to as Parallax. It usually occurs because the focal distance of the scope is out past where you are aiming. Most scopes seem to be made with a focal length of about 100m. The best remedy for this is to use a scope with an adjustable objective of a "rimfire" scope. Or work on making sure your head is in exactly te same place each time you take a shot. (This is not as easy as it sounds....)

Ammo does come into play. I agree with the earlier post of 10 or more rounds for a representative group. But dont be afraid to try different brands of ammo. You will very likely fin some brands work better than others and there is no way of truly finding this out without shooting them. There are a few rifles that shoot all brands well, but these are the exception rather than the rule....

Again mudgripz would be the best one to talk to.

My father been useing the same ammo for 15 od years in the same 22 does this make it more acute than trying new stuff all da time

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ultimitsu

I buy from reloaders or serious shooters. The last I paid for CCI subs HP was about 70 for a brick (so 7 per 50), that was maybe 7 months ago. Last I checked Reloaders still had Lapua Standard Plus 95 dollars for 500 round tin. Serious shooters had them for 12 dollars a 50 packet.

---

Unfortunately Lapua in tins hasn't been available for some time, it has morphed into SK Std in 500 rnd tins. It is many moons since Reloaders had some (mid last year?), I know as I wanted to stock up again. Serious as always have things listed "this item sold, send stock enquiry" but only Lapua Midas etc. Was in at Belmont in Wanganui in October and they had zilch SK and couldn't tell me when their next shipment would be available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FatLabrador

My father been useing the same ammo for 15 od years in the same 22 does this make it more acute than trying new stuff all da time

---

+

Not quite sure what you mean here.If he has been using the same ammo for 15 years then this wont make it more or less accurate than new stuff. But over that period, he should be fairly familiar with both the rifle and the ammo and will know what to expect when aiming. The length of time any ammo is used will make no difference to the performance in any way except for the shooter using the rifle will have had a lot more practise and should therefore develop themselves into a better shot.

I was waiting for a comment about 10rnd groups and the flyer actually being representitive. flyer may not be the right word then, maybe shooter error is more acurate. Im pretty sure most of them were me, those shots that you dont even need to look at the target to know it is off, where I probably should have looked up reset my position and tried again.
As to the parrallax issue, the scope is a cheap Chinese one with an adjustable objective and I did actually check that, was less than 5mm movement in the aim point
This is what I got with the CCI subs, I started at the bottom and went anticlockwise, for some reason the last target was always my bestAttachment 61566

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

I have a couple of JW15's and got to try a few different kinds of ammo through them. To be honest I think my shooting is a bigger factor than the particular ammo at the moment. I only had a 42m range and could get 5rnd groups to less around 20mm, most groups had a flyer from me pulling it (I think the trigger is the big downfall of my JW)

From what I could tell the CCI 40gr subs and the Killwell (Whinchester) subs grouped pretty much the same, although the 5th rnd of the Killwell wouldnt feed properly out of my magazine.

I also tried Power Point and Whinchester HV, I gave up on the power point as every second on would fail to extract, the HV seemed to group as well or maybe better than the subs (didnt get to fire as many with the kids in bed though)

---

I am not sure what your asking here ? Your groups are really good, what are you attending to do ?
If you are a paper puncher then I guess you will always want a smaller / tighter group. Thats the nature of target shooting.

If you want to shoot rabbits etc then your groups are excellent, rabbit won't care how small your groups are and what rifle you are using. All those groups pictured are dead rabbits.

There are a few threads on here that discuss at length how many shots you need to fire for a group is "representaive" of the rifle/ammo. Most degenerate into he said she said kind of thing and thankfully disappear but before then theres some good stuff as well.
Chasing groups is imo a waste of time after a certain point, the definition of an accurate hunting rifle to my mind is one that puts all its shots into the targets kill zone at the maximum normal hunting range.
If your groups are shot at 42 metres (46 yards) then as viper has said you have enough accuracy right now, and any little improvements probably wont repay the time effort and cash required to get them.

The old orange box Winchester was the one for the jw15s I've seen those groups look reasonable for a 50m shooter but I would suggest trying the normal Winchester ammo not the extra high velocity one and see if things improve, do basics of making sure scope is tight etc, of iron sights are still on shoot a group with them and see quickly if it's a scope issue (provided your confident with the old irons )

My opinion is that only the top group shown has a possible flier. If you get 4 shots touching and one 5 or 6 diameters away thats a flier. The first and last shots cant count as a flier either. They are more likely "wandering zero" due to barrel heating or bedding / scope shifts. My feeling is that shooter error is the main cause of highly erratic single shots rather than mechanical or ammo problems. Wandering zero between groups can also be due to to shooter position or wind.

Your groups are all wider than high suggesting some wind at play. That could easily give 20mm at 42m.

You could put all 4 groups together into one larger group of 20. You might imagine the group center is wandering. In long string target shooting you can follow this wander with fair success and save a few points. However for a practical hunting application you have to accept that your next shot could go anywhere in that 20 shot group area (looks like about 40mm?). Is that good enough for you ?

Ive seen a recent article suggesting that the limiting factor for mid and high end 22 rifles is the ammo because they all use it out of the same box and all groups are typically "an inch at 50".

I did once try what you re doing wih my JW15 but gave up after several sessions and a few hundred rounds because i really couldnt see a definite difference. I settled for one subsonic and one supersonic brand which were both easily available from a big manufacturer and have stuck with them for 20 years. A careful trajectory test and knowledge of expected group sizes were worthwhile.

That's why I stick to one shot groups😊

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by viper

I am not sure what your asking here ? Your groups are really good, what are you attending to do ?
If you are a paper puncher then I guess you will always want a smaller / tighter group. Thats the nature of target shooting.

If you want to shoot rabbits etc then your groups are excellent, rabbit won't care how small your groups are and what rifle you are using. All those groups pictured are dead rabbits.

---

Im pretty much asking what a reasonable group out of a 22lr is as I have no idea really, seems they are reasonable. I got the rifle for my 13th birthday which was over 20 years ago and only got my license recently so havent shoot for years and when I was a kid I never got to go through 200rnds for fun (I probably doubled the number thats gone through it!!). I was probably a little bit worried that it was a bad one as Dads 10/22 seems to shoot a bit better...

So I have found out that it likes the CCI subs and the Whinchester HV (which looks like it may group better in this one) and in the process of going through a few packets of ammo my trigger work got better (if thats a thing) and the groups did tighten up to what is here.

I did also try the Guncity $75 one quickly and it produced similar groups but the magazine didnt want to feed and the 5rnd one was too hard to get out of the stock I made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

Im pretty much asking what a reasonable group out of a 22lr is...

---

That is like asking, what is a reasonable 0 to 100 time for a 2 door car.

There is no universal "reasonable group", what is reasonable depends on what class of rifle you are talking about. Your group is certainly reasonable for a JW15, while it may not be reasonable for a Anschutz 1722.

Chilli - a fair sporting 22 in the hands of a range experienced shooter should shoot consistent sub 1" groups at 50 meters off the bench. A good sporter 22 will average close to 0.5" for groups and drop under the half inch at best (this includes most JWs). Several other makes will achieve this. Best sporter 22 I've tested (Em332) averaged 0.6" over 4 consecutive groups at 100m. Note these figures are for inexpensive standard barrel sporters. Great advantage to choosing a 22 sharpshooter is of course precision bunny shooting out to 100m+ - real treat using an accurate 22 in the field.

You often need to experiment with 10-15 types of sporter ammo to find exactly what shoots/cycles best in your 22, though JW15s often like winchester products and Fiocchi high velocity. Powerpoint HV has been so variable lately I don't buy it any more. Try the Fiocchi HV (blue packet). 5 shot groups are fine - I always do four consecutive 5 shot groups. Pulling shots fairly common as shooters learn to master bench shooting, positional pressures etc. As a new shooter you are doing fine and groups will improve with practice. Sometime go grab a club champ when at range and he will help you one hell of a lot in half an hour.

With ammo cycling remember to CRC your mag after say every second use - keep it lubed. And if you are interested here are some notes on JW setup and development:

JW15 modifications and setup ideas

You are doing fine - keep it up :)

Try getting a CZ ten round mag, I think it's a 452. I got two for my JW and haven't had any feed problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mudgripz

Chilli - a fair sporting 22 in the hands of a range experienced shooter should shoot consistent sub 1" groups at 50 meters off the bench. A good sporter 22 will average close to 0.5" for groups and drop under the half inch at best (this includes most JWs). Several other makes will achieve this. Best sporter 22 I've tested (Em332) averaged 0.6" over 4 consecutive groups at 100m. Note these figures are for inexpensive standard barrel sporters. Great advantage to choosing a 22 sharpshooter is of course precision bunny shooting out to 100m+ - real treat using an accurate 22 in the field.

You often need to experiment with 10-15 types of sporter ammo to find exactly what shoots/cycles best in your 22, though JW15s often like winchester products and Fiocchi high velocity. Powerpoint HV has been so variable lately I don't buy it any more. Try the Fiocchi HV (blue packet). 5 shot groups are fine - I always do four consecutive 5 shot groups. Pulling shots fairly common as shooters learn to master bench shooting, positional pressures etc. As a new shooter you are doing fine and groups will improve with practice. Sometime go grab a club champ when at range and he will help you one hell of a lot in half an hour.

With ammo cycling remember to CRC your mag after say every second use - keep it lubed. And if you are interested here are some notes on JW setup and development:

JW15 modifications and setup ideas

You are doing fine - keep it up :)

---

Thanks, I might have to look at joining a club for range use, this was in the paddock beside Dads place near Cave (only a 5 min drive to find wallabies though...). I have actually done almost all the mods in that post, I havent mucked around with the trigger too much (just cleaned it up with a stone) I also might try shimming the ejector plate up a bit. I think I will start on a new stock for it as well and Ill do another trigger like this one.

Attachment 61623Attachment 61624

Heaps of wildlife around after dark up there.Last night was the most bunnies/hares I've seen in a long time on that road.Normally at this time of year onwards, all the critters are munching on the green strip on the edge of the road. Because theres been so much moisture the paddocks have just started to burn off, so they're just starting to appear.Keep practicising on paper during the day, and go nuts at night

Mine is an over barrel suppressed job and it always groups very well except for once recently. It grouped about 3" so I gave it a clean and was back to tight groups again. I have always used Winchester 40 or 42gr subs. I have recently had a few 40gr subs sonic boom and a fair amount of bullet cases have a glue or similar substance on them which makes them hard to remove

Sent from my workbench

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smidey

Mine is an over barrel suppressed job and it always groups very well except for once recently. It grouped about 3" so I gave it a clean and was back to tight groups again. I have always used Winchester 40 or 42gr subs. I have recently had a few 40gr subs sonic boom and a fair amount of bullet cases have a glue or similar substance on them which makes them hard to remove

Sent from my workbench

---

I had that issue with the Winchester Power points, looked like some sort of wax on them, gave up with them after having to pop every second one out with a screwdriver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by oraki

Heaps of wildlife around after dark up there.Last night was the most bunnies/hares I've seen in a long time on that road.Normally at this time of year onwards, all the critters are munching on the green strip on the edge of the road. Because theres been so much moisture the paddocks have just started to burn off, so they're just starting to appear.Keep practicising on paper during the day, and go nuts at night

---

Its funny, Dads over the hill towards Timaru and there has never been many rabbits or hares there, could go out with the spotlight and see 2 or 3 if I was lucky, whereas a 20 min walk up the hill on Sunday and saw 5 wallabies and shot three in less than an hour (not with the jw)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

I had that issue with the Winchester Power points, looked like some sort of wax on them, gave up with them after having to pop every second one out with a screwdriver.

---

Not had any that bad, just a bit more force required on the bolt

Sent from my workbench

Mine doesn't like extracting winchester 40 gn subs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog

Its funny, Dads over the hill towards Timaru and there has never been many rabbits or hares there, could go out with the spotlight and see 2 or 3 if I was lucky, whereas a 20 min walk up the hill on Sunday and saw 5 wallabies and shot three in less than an hour (not with the jw)

---

Was only an observation I've made from driving that road sometimes up to 6 times a night for the last 11 years. This time of year the grass is normally brown except for a strip right next to the road that stays green from the rain runoff. Haven't been over the hill for a couple of weeks so can't say.
Maybe I'm more observant now and seeing more than I did a couple of years ago

The secrets to good groups are: use the brand of ammo that YOUR particular rifle likes (I normally try 15-20 different brands); clean the bore after each group is fired; hold the rifle exactly the same way with each shot, and use a rest; squeeze, don't pull, the trigger; and maintain steady breathing. As you have seen from some of the above comments, there is no best ammo for any brand of rifle.