Thank you, a flattering comment Gimp. You asked for theory.
Changing tack a little, what 223 bullets would you recommend for red deer and what sort of ranges do they work for ?
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Thank you, a flattering comment Gimp. You asked for theory.
Changing tack a little, what 223 bullets would you recommend for red deer and what sort of ranges do they work for ?
73, 75, 80, 88 gr ELDM
69, 77 gr Tipped Matchking
69, 74, 80gr Targex
Probably some Bergers in similar weights.
Maybe the 80gr ELDX - I'm going to try some of those soon.
Good to 400m + depending on your MV - you need >1800fps impact velocity for expansion. That's 475m from my load.
Most aren't available in NZ in a factory load so I would recommend this gentleman purchase a 6.5CM or .243 and shoot something like the 140gr ELDM or 90gr ELDX respectively and be happy and confident that it will and does work as well as anything else in the world for shooting NZ deer at conventional (and longer) ranges
Ive, just out of interest, gone through that entire thread. So whats there? The vast majority is fallow deer. After that comes red hinds, yearlings and spiker's.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Whats also there is a few very experienced hunters killing most of the animals.
Whats not there? Many big mature red stags. Roughly half of those that are there, have been shot by one person.
What that tells me is that its a tool for experienced hunters who can push the calibre too its limits. Who have the knowledge and patience to wait for the perfect shot, or even pass up a chance.
Whats also not there? any reference too situations where things did not go to plan.
Im going to use an analogy now. A good big Boxer will always beat a good small boxer!
There are things a 270, since it was used as an example, can do much better than a 223. Tough angled shots. Breaking the spine on a big animal if the shot gos high. Running shots where you dont have the same ability to put the bullet exactly right. Follow up shots when things have gone wrong.
This advantage of course lessens as you go up, so yes a 243 is a better choice, but there is still some advantage too a bigger projectile. Or we would all be using the small calibers for everything.
In my 55 + yrs of hunting I've only seen two impressive bull tahr, both were 600 plus and for that I now carry a 300 wsm. Unfortunately I've never again seen those particular bad boys or anything approaching that size. I'm saying carry a big boy for big bad boys.
Since the original post states for small game and the odd big game I would suggest the 223, sure the biggest pills I have seen for factory ammo is the 60gr hornady whitetail which knock deer over just fine.
I find it a little amusing the guys suggesting some of the bigger calibres as I can't believe anyone would have the dollars to use these big boys on rabbits and possums as you would soon chalk up hundreds of dollars and it would be just plain un-economic.
Get a 223 practice on targets, then move onto rabbits and finally go and shoot some deer.
Enjoy shooting a lovely accurate riffle with no recoil and you will shoot anything you want.
OP already has 22lr and shotguns for small stuff and 357 mag for close stuff. Well said Mr @whanahuia... The same has been said about wee 224s for fourty years.the heavier projectiles and the mono projectiles have upped the anti but it's a small bit of metal and sometimes a big hunk of animal.
thank you Mickey Duck little common sense - no one is suggesting he use heavy calibers on rabbits and he has a .22 for that and target work - so dont know where that comes from - 223 on rabbits that is expensive and he has a .22 - okay my man forget all the talk on here about projectiles yes all true but for you not needed as you are not reloading so you will be using what you buy from the store - reload later if you wish - trade that .357 lever action on a good .308 7mm-08 270 25-06 suppressor will null recoil somewhat and you will tackle most deer - I would say a .223 but its limited on bigger deer thats the worry - not a fan on the 6mm calibres even though many like them so I never recommend them and would not buy one - if wallabys become a target the above will all do the job and its good target practice for deer - having tried .243 and 6mm went away disappointed and did not last long in my gunsafe - better overgunned than undergunned - leave playing with projectiles if you get real keen and start reloading - meantime buy ammo and get out there - you must be beginning to see why so many have muliple rifles in their safe there is no one awnser - but after 50 years of hunting one thing I do know with deer - blow a big hole = big blood trail =and better knockdown 30 cal or 7mm get one in those calibres get to know it and how it handles and have it well zeroed - dont get into the temptation to continually swap rifles caliber's - used to take a guy out here and everytime he would turn up with a different rifle and caliber - quess what he shot zilch - one time 4 fallow were 250 away and he had a 30-30 he did not fire a shot- just was not confident with it
If you in the thick stuff, shooting on dusk, a blood trail is nice to help find an animal that runs on the shot. I like a projectile to expand AND exit. Might not relate to the OP’s question for small game and occasional deer but builds on Whanahuia’s earlier argument for a bit more energy. We all know a few hunts creates a need for a dedicated deer rifle..
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Wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by whanahuia
Learn a bit about sectional density and bullet construction.
The headstamp (FYI, that's the number and letter (s) that are on the back of the brass casing) don't matter as much as what comes out of the muzzle.
There is no such thing as a '270' or '223' bullet.
People were killing animals with round lead balls but they were hardly much better than the wound left by an arrow, unless that ball struck bone and broke through, you'd get little in terms of expansion and fragmentation.
Also on that note, with regards to the 'old rifles better/rose tinted glasses/hunting from the nursing home' brigade, there were probably old timers telling people that the musket was just as good and it wasn't worth spending money on these new fangled 'rifles' with fancy barrels... get an old blunderbuss it will be just as good! :thumbsup:
Honestly. Thats a stupid response!Quote:
Originally Posted by caberslash
Sectional density is important for a number of reasons, But no one realistically believes that a good 277 calibre projectile doesn't have plenty enough sectional density. That sounds like an argument to use when you have nothing else. With a 270, what "comes out of the barrel " is a projectile with more than enough sectional density, around twice the weight, Travelling at the same or greater speed depending on exact projectile being used, All things being equal- exactly the same ability for the projectile to function correctly re expansion and impart its energy, more energy to impart, and a greater projectile diameter.
All of those factors help a projectile kill well.
For the last 30 years ive used both calibers with .223 and .270 on thier head stamp. Both a great in thier own way. I am under no illusions on which one though has the greater ability on big game.
@HindmarshLM07 How is your head?
it's a simple question, "Looking for a good all around rifle," which has been and will be debated for years, with no definitive outcome.
Basicallybuy whatever you are comfortable with.
If, after a few successful hunting trips, there is something you don't like about the rifle, it's accuracy, or knock down power, sell it and buy something better.
You don't need to get it exactly 100% correct on the first try.
Good luck.
We do have a definitive answer, people just don't want to see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Shields
For years it was a Tikka in 7mm08, and now I think a better answer is a Tikka in 6.5CM or a Howa in 6.5CM. There are literally dozens of cartridges that will work, but 7mm08 or 6.5CM is the right answer for a new shooter/hunter.
People stop suggesting the obvious answer because it gets labelled as a "latte drinkers rifle" or get called "6.5manbun" or just because people want to be different, but for a new shooter these are the obvious choices.
The OP hasn't been very clear about what his intended game is, at first is was deer and big game but then has mentioned small game.
If he just wants to blast a few rabbits or wallaby then any of the "normal" hunting cartridges are fine, if he wants to shoot 50 wallaby/rabbits a week then it's a different story.
you quickly forget how difficult it was to buy ammunition for either of those 2-3 years back...and must wear rose tinted glasses when look at price tags too.....but yes if shop around and buy lots when find it at ok price and dont shoot a lot its not too bad...Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetroot
Everything was difficult to buy ammo for 2-3years ago. Many things still are, match 22lr ammo is almost non-existent these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Micky Duck
For the most centrefire ammo is close enough to the same price, so for a good all round rifle it doesn't really matter.
For a high volume shooter then 308 might be a cheaper option but 223 is by far the best, so again comes back to what the OP wants.
Yep guys have played this game before and keep coming back to the 308 and 223 combo's (223 in 1:8 twist that is).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetroot
Have had very fast rifles (they pencil through a lot, or cause massive carnage to good meat) also Magnums in 7MM and 300cal they're good for ego and distance shooting. Have had the man bun cals that shoot beautifully but cost an arm and a leg to feed to find factory or reliable reload supply that shoots well and doesn't break the bank.
Keep coming back to the 308 and 223. The 223 in a 1:8 I can load heavyish 75-80Gr or light varmint rounds. In heavier rounds I've had some really amazing terminal results (with good placement) on Reds so this became my sunrise sunset rifle of late. During the day for a walk I'd take the 308. Brilliant for fast reaction shooting on bumped animals (the old run 50y and stop ones) where you perhaps don't have as much time for precision or time as a set up 223 shot. But both work extremely well.
New Shooter - do yourself a favour add a good suppressor and pop a limbsaver boot on the 308 until you're used to it and get the trigger working well for you. 223 I always have a suppressor as the crack without tends to make em bolt but with suppressor they generally do a WTF and you have more time for a follow up.
Hope that helps - don't get caught up (like us all) in the fashion parade of hoping for the wonder 1 to rule them all. Invest in one or both of these - you'll find yourself coming back to em time and time again.
CD....
It depends, there are 100% cartridges that'll do almost everything, something like 22creedmoor, 22 BR, or 22GT will basically do what both 223 and 308 will do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpe Diem
You'll burn more powder than 223 and have terrible barrel life compared to both cartridges but for most people 1500 round barrel life is more than enough.
I'm never going to recommend that to a new shooter though, not least because factory rifles and ammo don't really exist (might not be long before 22creed is available though).
It all depends on the context, the following situations all require different recommendations:
-all round hunting rifle (the topic of this thread): 7mm08, 6.5CM maybe 6.5Grendel, 243 or 6CM
-high volume shooter (who doesn't reload): 223, 308 or rimfire
-a reloader: whatever you want depending on intended game
-competition shooter: depends what discipline you shoot
TLDR;
6.5CM or 7mm08 are the "best" cartridges for someone who wants to chase a few deer, shoot a few wallaby/goats/rabbits and the odd pig.
223 and 308 and somewhat worth considering but 223 is too small for a new shooter IMO and is likely to lead to some animals dying in more pain than they aught to, and 308 recoils a lot in a light weight rifle and will do nothing more than 6.5CM other than teach someone to flinch.
It's a shame there aren't more 6mm CM factory rifles yet.
I'll go shoot a few more big stags for you. It will be a chore and I'll be terribly sad to do itQuote:
Originally Posted by whanahuia
if what I read on you tube posts from USA the 6.5cm is already on its way out replaced with yes supposed bigger better - 308 and 270 just carry on regardless as they always have doneQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Dont do it for me Gimp, I wont be particularly impressed as I know it can be done. I also take it for granted that you will do it well. I have 100% success on deer and big boars with the .22 rimfire when ive used it. Because I knew where I had to be and when the right shot presented, When to shoot. Or not. Im not going to claim its a particularly good idea to do though.
I was simply pointing out the reality of that thread, as far as 223 use go's.
Yeah we'll just use a .243 and be happy and be able to find ammunition in most shops lolQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
All those US Youtube channels are full of shit, they just promote whatever the gun companies give them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry the hunter
How many of them talked up how amazing 6.8 western is? If ever there was a new future obsolete cartridge that was the one.
6.5cm isn't going anywhere, 6cm and 22cm are going to do to 243 and 22-250 what 6.5cm did to 260.
They aren't anythign special, other than facotry rifles will be introduced in the correct twist rate, and good, accurate, correct projectile weight match and hunting ammo will be (and already is) available straight away.
Rabbit hole....
Rabbit hole.....
Rabbit hole......
@Beetroot broad brush stroke statements like, "All those US Youtube channels are full of shit," is not really helpful.
Recently I have been watching The Big Game Hunters Blog o YouTube. Very interesting, factual, well researched and informative. I would direct any new hunter/shooter to listen to the detailed comparisons he does on various cartridges.
Each clip starts with the history of each cartridge and rifles, then the family trees, then detailed comparisons between the ballistics, trajectory, energy, grouping etc. I have learnt a lot from watching this guy, very informative and very unbiased.
One thing John says in his talks on 6.5mm family is, "There are so many good 6.5mm cartridges, that all have very good and similar ballistics, that we are splitting hairs to say one is better than the other....."
I suggest the new guys watch The Big Game Hunters Blog, cartridge comparisons, with an open mind....
THank you Hugh many of the you tube from states are not biased and very informative -well worth a watch - so Hamish you cannot say we have not enthusiastically responded to your post if at times a little biased why not if we were all the same boringQuote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Shields
Two things can be true at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Shields
I shoot a 260 and it's great, even has a little better performance the 6.5cm. I'm not going to recommend it to a new shooter though as their choice of factory ammo is almost non-existent, where as 6.5cm ammo and rifles (in the right twist rate) are readily available.
So yes, there are a bunch of 6.5mm cartridges that are all so similar it's like splitting hairs (same thing with 6mm and 7mm cartridges) but there is only one you'd recommend for a new shooter who is not a reloader.
You might recommend 6.5x55 also, but for simplicity sake the "best" one in this instance is 6.5cm.
Yes sorry, many of them aren't and broad claims are indeed not helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh Shields
But any one that claims 6.5cm is dead and/or dying is 100% full of shit.
what I heard was that 6.5 CM had been superseded by better - I guess rifles will still be available in it and ammo available
Yea my reading oif it ws that the PRC is meant to be a short action catridge and is super ceding the small 7mm (7m08, 284) and 6.5 CM's.
Just not sure as while case lengths are simalar the cartridge OAL of the PRC is 0.1" longer than most Short action mags will take.
It also runs higher pressures than the CM family and other 308 family cartridges.
Z
Opps, just reviewed previous long posts on here about the 6.5 PRC vs CM etc from earlier this year. Looks like this has been well covered by people with knowledge of both.
I’ve just revisited this thread from start to finish , and after reading and digesting every response I have come to the conclusion of …..
Just buy a Rifle and start using and learning both how to shoot it and all of it’s failings and it’s capabilities :thumbsup:
Agreed. Low recoil and plenty of ammo about.Quote:
Originally Posted by gimp
The prc will never super eyed there midpower classmates. There's a reason why the top sellers are 308 and 6.5cm.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZQLewis
You sacrifice cost, recoil, rifle and ammo availibility moving to the magnum.
In the pr competition circles where the 6.5cm was first popularised the cartridge has been superceeded by 6mm offerings, this hasn't and likely won't filter into the genpop however, as the requirments of Jo schmo hunter/weekend plinker are way different to the competition guys trying to eek out an extra cm of wind drift.
6.5cm has been by far the most successful cartridge launch in recent history and is here to stay for the long term. For good reason to it's an effective well designed midrange cartridge that tweaks and improves upon a couple of it's predecessors shortcomings.
Agreed but the main reason for 6mms in PRS type comps is lower recoil - can shoot better scores and spot spots more easily - something like 6 Dasher gets kinda smoked by 6.5mm with heavies for drift