@uk_exile similar to one in your link, I got the 1000 model
Do a search on here for SNDWAY and read the thread started by Dougie
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@uk_exile similar to one in your link, I got the 1000 model
Do a search on here for SNDWAY and read the thread started by Dougie
One word of caution on RFs try to get one which is rated as water proof. Some are & some aren’t - my first one was not and did not survive a very brief dip in the stream ( like 2-3 seconds) when I was boulder hopping..... or trying to :pacman:
Starting out there's nothing wrong with $400 vortex diamondback 10x42s. Or Leopold Yosemites.
I started out with both and have never upgraded. I can still spot deer well beyond 1km away no prob, and see them in low light etc.
Some people seem to think that unless optics cost thousands of dollars you won't be able to see deer.
I'm sure a pair of 4k Euro binos will do everything that little bit better but not 10 times better.
Truth be told I wouldnt even bother with a rangefinder to begin with anyhow, get a rifle and some binos and get out there and hunt
The advice has been great! A lot suggesting second hand so I'll keep an eye out.
One question, do most gun shops offer a pre purchase inspection for second hand rifles? I don't know how to check one myself even if its local and it might be from anywhere so would be buying unseen.
Nice little can of worms you have got going on here @uk_exile and some rather excellent questions.
Since I'm in the uk @gundoc our @stug will be able to help here. But there's plenty more on here that I'm sure will come and give it a once over at the local shop and might even take you done the local range and have a sight in done to make sure your not buying a lemon.
The website Rubber Monkey has some really good priced Bushnell binos. Worth a look.
That website im pretty sure just searches the web for deals then makes you pay them for them from what I can gather.. seems dodgyQuote:
Originally Posted by 300wsm for life
The name Rubber Monkey sounds dodgy in it's own right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
actually @Sarvo Delta Forest binos are pretty damn good for what they cost, make excellent glovebox binos too
There is a BSA CF2 in 7mm mag on Trademe with a buy now of $650. Complete with Bipod and Tasco Pronghorn scope.
I have had two CF2's and still have one. Don't worry they can really shoot. They have a target type adjustable trigger and an action like a Sako Forester. The CF2 balances perfectly with the 7mil Mag as it is quite a big rifle. If it was me, I would bid on it you might buy it for $550 then spend all the money saved on Binos. Finding them to shoot is the important and harder part. You don't need a great scope to be able to shoot a deer at normal ranges.
We've used Rubber Monkey website quite a lot at work for protective cases for survey & test equipment and it's ok. Fast delivery so I doubt they're acting as middle men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst
I think you're referring to this one https://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/hun...34f24d58a91f8fQuote:
Originally Posted by Moa Hunter
I can't buy yet as FAL not completed yet so too soon, and it's pickup only. I'm in Chch, it's Levin. Note scope & bipod are not included.
Thanks for the suggestion though. I'm guessing it'll be a month before my FAL completed.
When you get the license through, throw up a wtb add on the buy and sell section forn the rifle and see whats out there. There's fellas on here change rifles more than their undies, so often worth asking the question. Dont get stuck on the 7mm mag to much either, with modern ammo a 308/7mm08/270 will kill shit out further than you will be able to accurately shoot anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by uk_exile
If buying expensive binos is going to stop you getting out hunting then IMO dont't buy em. Nothing wrong with vortex diamondbacks or similar. Hold price well too. Top dollar glass is bloody nice but $$$ and when setting up from scratch sometimes you need to go a bit cheaper in order to get out there.
I had just started a new business when I got back into hunting and couldn't afford high end shit, so did the research and bought quality used, or good value items, then upgraded as needed when funds allowed. Probably cost more in the long run but at least I was in the hills
Got to remember all the other shit to buy as well. Boots, tent, sleepingbag, backpack, knife, PLB (recommend), cooker, the list goes on...
It is all I use nowQuote:
Originally Posted by mikee
Doing an order now from a few more - sold many to Farmer mates - as you say - glove box - Quad box - $200ish great
I am going to get the Delta Titanium 10x56 for myself to try next order - they are double the price though, so will see if they worth the extra cost
Spotted this https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Lis...?id=1913860676 and thought it could be an option as has 4.5-14x scope.
Ok value?
Yeah man 1200 bucks is probably about right. Scope is nothing super awesome but not bad either. Will do what you want from itQuote:
Originally Posted by uk_exile
I have bought a few second hand rifles for very little money and they shoot fairly well, leaves money for the other things. I've also bought second hand optics that do the job well enough. Keep an eye on the buy/sell/swap section for some good deals. Don't be in too much of a hurry to spend. On trademe it is often a good time to buy rifles heading into the duck season as some guys change gear for the seasons. Gauge the market to get an idea of second hand pricing and wait for a good deal. If you are starting out with gear you will be unlikely to be reloading so go with something that takes readily available shop ammo.
Also take up offers from the good buggers here to try gear. It will give you a good idea of what you can get for your money and give you a better chance to test than looking out the door of a shop. @Sarvo would be a top candidate for someone to buy binos from.
This a such a good forum for getting good advice! There's a MTB forum I used a few years ago that was great for sharing info, trial details, maintenance tips etc but it's entirely been taken over by munters making their own in jokes. Has become useless.
Repeated, sustained observation requires comfortable binoculars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
Comfortable binoculars have a bright image, not too much perceptible shake, and are not too heavy.
Higher magnification like 10x requires thicker, heavier glass for their lenses to bend light that much, which steals some light. They have a smaller exit pupil which can punish at dusk, when our own pupils may dilate to 5+mm (young eyes 7-8mm!) but the 10x42s will only feed them with a cone of light of 4.2mm. And they have perceptible shake due to the magnification which makes prolonged (handheld) observation a strain.
Don't go above 8x magnification for a combination of all the above reasons.
This puts me squarely in the cheapskate category of course, but the considerations above are basic physics so can't be gotten around by manufacturing a 10x42 to a higher spec. The glass will still be thicker to gain that magnification, the magnification will still cause image shake, and its exit pupil (EP) will remain limited to 4.2mm.
A little table to show you I can do division on a calculator, though the easy ones I did in my head:
10 x 50 EP 5.0mm
10 x 42 EP 4.2mm
8 x 50 EP 6.25mm
8 x 42 EP 5.25 mm
7 x 50 EP 7.14mm
7 x 40 EP 5.7mm
7 x 35 EP 5.0mm
6 x 30 EP 5.0mm
Disclaimer: the best binoculars are the ones you have on your person when you need them, someone else on this forum said that.
Cordite, the reasons you state make sense but I've been told to get 10x as 8x won't be enough for the distances in open exposed Canterbury high country. Surely location and intended use trumps other factors?
I use 10x42 and have no issues with them.
Yes, that is all correct and I'm not contradicting anyone else, all I do is point out the physics at play and helping you make your own informed choice. Your main problem with binoculars will be either not bringing them, or not taking yourself out and using whatever ones you buy!!! In then end it is about compromise, even if it is a hybrid solution which I'll come to.Quote:
Originally Posted by uk_exile
You WILL have perceptible shake if you go above 8x, the binos will get heavier with higher magnification, and you will have less light available to your eyes at higher magnifications. Add that field of view reduces the higher the magnification, so seeing closer may mean noticing less.
See first few paragraphs of this page (actually a 10x42 blurb page) for a discussion of this aspect: https://www.bestbinocularsreviews.co...binoculars.php
As a rule of thumb, if you can see something with your naked eyes (the least stressful way to be "glassing"!) but you are not able to make out what it is, then a 7x bino will help you to identify and study it. On the other hand 10x will help you see something that you won't even notice with your naked eye - provided you look at it at the right time.
Some food for thought, a hybrid solution which you are already planning to pack. For tops, remember that, in addition to your binoculars, you will also carry a usually more powerful high quality monocular on your unloaded bolt-open rifle. Add a rifle bipod for shake-free super close views of very distant objects and you are well covered for a situation where your 7x35's lighter weight, brighter image, wider field, less shaky image won't quite do. OK, you may end up pointing your gun at a tramper 1200 m away, but no harm in that as your rifle will be in a completely safe state.
On a nostalgic note, here's some European tourists, tops hunters I reckon. Definitely 6x30 binos. Not sure exact rifle scope magnification but looks cool. Pre bipod fashion.
Attachment 103066
Not sure what this guy is hunting, but he's kitted out for dangerous game. Similar 6x30s, but Kershaws not Zeiss going by the screws front.
Attachment 103067
Edit, just had a closer look, is that a Walther P-38 I see before me?
Both 8x and 10x binoculars are ideal and readily available. Which you choose comes down to personal preference. But IMO, the benefits of the extra magnification in the 10x is often overstated. I've had 4 pairs of 10x binos and I'm now running 8.5's. Yes, the 10's offered just that bit extra in magnification, but I doubt you'd be able to see the difference in a simple blindfold test...budum tish. :wtfsmilie: :D
However, the slightly wider field of view and brightness in the 8x does make a noticeable difference, and for me, it lends itself to a more relaxed view.
The '10x is for tops, 8x for bush' argument isn't accurate. It doesn't take eyesight or glass quality into account, nor somebody's proneness to shake when holding a pair of binos. You'll see more with a 7x with brilliant top drawer glass v.s a 8/10x with mediocre glass. This is the same with rifle scopes and spotting scopes. I don't know why this is - but I guess it's got something to do with higher magnifications using more glass (thicker glass) - and the more you've got of something, the more its weaknesses will be compounded.
As a general rule of thumb, if you want more magnification, it's best to spend more.
The same goes with optical design. If you do not want to spend a lot - DO NOT purchase Roof Prism binoculars (more complicated in design). Pick up a pair of Porro Prism binoculars instead. They'll give you just as good image quality (often better) at a fraction of the price.
If you want to spend less than $1500 on binos, but you'd like $4k worth of optical performance, here's a bino that'll fit the bill:
https://www.jacobsdigital.co.nz/prod...0-w-binoculars
Pros:
1) They're made in Austria by Swarovski - quality.
2) They'll hold their value
3) They won't ever go obselete - they're of a traditional 'porro prism' design
4) They're bomb proof
5) They're better optically (in many respects) compared to expensive Roof Prism binoculars.
6) Reasonably priced
Cons:
1) They're not as ergonomic as a pair of Roof Prism binos.
2) They're not as easy to look through - you've got to take care with positioning your eyes due to limited eye relief and a more primitive eye-cup design.
3) They're not the 'latest and grestest whiz bang' (but does that really matter? They've been around for over 50 years and are time proven).
You've really got to try them first. If they fit you well, they could be the last pair of binos you'll ever need.
To clarify the porro vs roof prism thing, each has advantages and disadvantages. The prisms are there to upright the image, or you'd have to view game upside down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frodo
The porro prisms are the "old fashioned" style, with a kink in each tube. The wider distance between the objective lenses adds a slight 3D effect on closer objects, but over 50-100metres matters little. The other advantage of the porro is total internal reflection, meaning no need for special mirror coatings to achieve optimal transmission.
Roof prism binoculars (roof prisms are shaped like a house with a tented roof, hence the name) are characterised by their straight tubes, and the roof prism is also smaller (read lighter). The main "disadvantage" of the roof prism is that it does not quite fully achieve internal reflection, so to get around the loss of light from this, some of the prism's external surfaces must be coated with a mirror surface. Cheap ones have aluminium coatings, which do well, but are not as bright as those with silver coatings. There is a lot of expensive hi-tech involved in achieving the best coatings - and in protecting them from corrosion - which add cost. But basically an expensively mirror coated roof prism will achieve the same light transmission as a cheap porro prism with no mirror coating.
If you compare cheap roof prism binos and cheap porro binos with same specs, say fully coated 8x42, the porros will be brighter. Pay more for special prism mirror coatings and enhanced waterproofing to protect the mirror coatings and they have equal brightness. So...
cheap porros bright
cheap roofs darker, but lighter weight
expensive roofs bright, and lighter weight.
They both remain subject to the principle of more magnification thicker lenses, and then wider lenses to regain the lost light.
In regard to weight, lightweight (<500gram) binoculars are lighter than one might suppose, because heavier binos require the added weight of a binocular harness.
Some really good info there. Cheers for clarifying. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
I just thought I'd add: it makes sense for a shop assistant at a hunting store to praise the virtues of a 10x binocular over something with less magnification, because generally you'll pay more for the same model binocular if it's in a higher magnification. Not a lot - but I guess it depends on how keen they are to squeeze every penny out of you.
Glass is all about your eyes and your needs. Some like larger binos, some smaller. Some like extra magnification, some less. Some of us have deeper-set eye sockets and require more eye relief, and vice versa.
There just aren't any concrete rules (other than what Physics dictates i.e a larger exit pupil = more light), and the internet (as useful as it is at times) can be one hell of an echo chamber. Everyone's got an opinion, but at the end of the day, one person's treasure is another person's...:)
It really is akin to buying shoes. You've gotta try before you buy. Even with the high end models.
Now to turn your argument on its head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
The light that enters the lens is determined by the objective lens size and the losses are pretty much the same for an 8x or 10x magnification, the difference in lens thickness is very little. So the exit pupil might be smaller, but it will be of higher intensity, so the amount of light getting through is the same. Now if your 8x42's have an exit pupil of 5.25 and your eyes at night have a 5mm pupil then you will get losses going into your eyes of at least 1- (52/5.252) = 9.3% and more if your line of sight is out by more than 0.125mm from the centre. With 10x42's with a exit pupil of 4.2mm your eye need to be more than 0.4mm from the centre of the exit pupil any light is lost.
Physics!
Physics indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgetman
In daylight you CAN use say a ridiculously magnifying binocular or monocular of say 25x30, as even with an exit pupil of 30/25 = 1.2mm you will get enough light to see clearly. But what a strain to find that small keyhole of light! Not for prolonged glassing, but fine for just checking something out.
Similarly a pair of 7x50s are comfy to use on the bridge of a ship (no lugging them over hills!) even for a middle aged man with a max pupil diameter of ~5mm. He cannot utilise the 7x50's large exit pupil of 7.14mm, it's just that he can just lift them to his eyes and look without manoeuvring into precise eye alignment. Thus a pair of binos with larger-than-required exit pupils are an advantage not just in very low light, but throughout the day.
Lightness, large exit pupil and wide field of view wins the day every time, but they just don't not go with higher magnification. Can't get both in the same package. Impossible physics in one package.
The solution of carrying some light 7x35s and then using your 3-15x rifle scope for checking out an occasional very distant object works as far as the physics are concerned, with no weight penalty. But it will grate some to use a gun mounted optic for other than aiming though, for obvious reasons of potentially pointing their rifle in the direction of some unwitting passer by, even if unloaded and at a far distance. One might say it dilutes the principle of always pointing a gun in a safe direction. Also, the idea does not work if your rifle scope is a fixed 4x or similar.
The other way to approach it is to use Galilean optics for checking far distant objects. So, say carry a 7x35 bino, and for the occasional far spotting have an extendable type telescope, say 15x or 25x. They're light, compact and reach much further out than any 10x42 or 12x50. But with a narrow FOV they are mainly useful for checking out a specific object, and must be supported as they are usually light weight.
I'd not really go as far as the very heroic monocular (or the Mills bombs) in the kit here ...but the idea is the same: (-:
Attachment 103182
Holy shit, you guys are over thinking things,
i have both 8x and 10x bino's, in the big open country- tops of the south island, i grab the 10x every time,
Why? because they help evaluating potential animals that little bit more, field of view doesn't matter that much as
you should be grid searching the hill face anyway,( i work from top to bottom, then bottom to top) it may take a couple more sweeps of the hill face to complete, than the 8x
but you shouldn't rush this exercise anyway.
if you intend to use in the bush then 8x would be ideal for both situations
it really depends where you are going to use them the most.
you really need to have them side by side in your usual hunting place, and comparing them, to make an informed decision.
Agree with everything you say. Say what do you have on top of your rifle?Quote:
Originally Posted by HUNTY
a couple of swarovski 3-18x44 , like the scopes, nice and light, and can dial out past 650 yards with a 200 yard zero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
I have steady hands and have no issues with using 10x binos, but with the 8-20x50 I had at the Toby shoot I mount them in a tripod if the magnification is wound up. I have not had much experience 'glassing' so far, but have had bino's for many years. I compromised and bought a budget pair of 9x36 hunting binos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cordite
Refreshing this as I now have secure budget of $500 max.
So what 8x42 or 10x42 do you suggest and purchase from where? I'm in Christchurch.
A few I found as maybes
https://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/Bushn...CategoryId=391
https://www.rubbermonkey.co.nz/Nikon...CategoryId=391
https://www.huntingandfishing.co.nz/...inoculars.html
I have a pair of Vortex 8x42 Viper HD binoculars that I’ve been using for about a year .
They replaced a pair of Kahles 8x42 that did about 15 years of service .
The Vortex Vipers are more expensive than what your wanting to spend , but I found mine secondhand on eBay basically new for $600 , maybe ask around here if there are any good binoculars ( of any brand ) secondhand floating around among the members.
The quality of the Vortex HD glass really impressed me and to be honest the clarity is right up there with my old Kahles pair which cost alot of money back in the day .
The lifetime warranty that Vortex offers shouldn’t be overlooked either if you do end up buying secondhand.
Good luck with your search .
Same model name as the Vortex listed by H&F but looks quite different and slightly different specs. Old model vs new model maybe?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil_H
sorted out the difference with Broncos vs H&F
https://www.targettamers.com/binocul...-10x42-review/
Broncos have the newer version at lower price
If I buy Vortex it'll defeintely be via Broncos! Undecided at moment as Sarvo has offered to source me some extremely well priced Delta Optical Forest II however unsure as they're 8.5x50 & 870 gramsQuote:
Originally Posted by Phil_H
@uk_exileQuote:
Originally Posted by uk_exile
They come in 10x and 12x as well - and do not forget they are 50's not 42's which negatively adds a bit more weight but positively draws more light
And bang for buck they are pretty damn good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarvo
That's why I'm really tempted as they seem extremely good value. Leaves cash for a holder & a low cost SNDWAY range finder.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikee
Thinking one of these bags https://bushbuckoutdoors.com/product...-binocular-bag
However I've never had a pair of 50s in hand so I need to at least visit a store this weekend and get a feel for size before commiting to anything.
