Optics for long range

OK all you practising long range shooters, I'm setting up a long range cannon and deciding on a scope. Currently looking at S & B but torn between 5-25 & 12-50.
Currently shooting deer to about 750yds. New rifle an AI 338 & looking to shoot 1000+ starting with steel. Is higher magnification than 25 useful? Even for spotting without a separate spotting scope? Or does mirage kill that idea?
Or is a 5-25 as high as you need to go.
I've had 5.5-22 x 56 nightforce, and used a mates 5-25 S & B.

Thanks in advance, for the educated input from guys that are doing it already!
Ta,

I'd save yourself a little bit of money and get a 5-25x56 nightforce ATACR. You don't want a 12-50 Schmidt, there is a shit load of them second hand for a reason.

Hi LR, can you elaborate on what the 12-50 problem is?
Re the Nightforce, the ATACR looks good, I was thinking the S&B was a step up? I had a 5.5-22 NXS, which was fine, but there was a noticeable difference between the glass of a 5-25 S&B.
I actually think my Trijicon has similar glass quality to the NF, with a big jump to S&B.
Thanks for the input, any clarification appreciated,

50 power is rarely able to be used and I hear that the eye box is shocking at 50x. The ATACR glass is on par with Schmidt glass from the reports I've read on them, it is different glass from that used in the NXS. I haven't used a ATACR yet but I would buy one over the Schmidt. The ATACR also has massive internal elevation if you are shooting out really far.

If you want the best glass go to a Premier Heritage, they are a step above a S&B optically and as good mechanically.

Really , I have both Premiers ( 3-15x50 & 5-25x56 Heritage ) & S&B PMIIs ( 4-16x50 & 5-25x56 ) , and have not had ANY problem with my Benders at ALL , and I cannot say that about me Premiers , thats my actual experience .
I also find the more std way of re-zeroing the knobs , on the Benders much easier , than the camlock & clicking method of the Premiers , maybe thats just me .

Which AI 338 rifle , the older AWSM , or the newer AX338 , either way I would go with a 5-25x56 PMII , FFP , with P4F reticle , and CW turn direction knobs , the AI rifles just look RIGHT with a Bender , maybe thats just ME again .

What can are you going to use on her , AI , BT or a AU borelock SL7 ?

Also be aware AI , have just brought out a AX bipod , as well as a variant of the AX338 ( ie the PSR AX338 , this is easier to swap out the barrel & has a different RH folding stock design ) .

IF you have NOT ordered YET , I would reccomend the AX338 , over the AWSM 338 .

Later Chris

Chris you told me your 5-25 prem was brand new have you used it? Yes without doubt the new Optronika Prems have better glass than a PM2.
I've never had an issue with either the prem or a S&B, but it sounds like they are having alot of issues with out of the box issues whith the new PM2's.
The PM2 is a very nice scope but personally I prefer the premier in all ways except for the MTC and not having a marked distances on the parallax.
Have you used a Optronika manufactured Perm Chris?

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Originally Posted by ChrisF

Really , I have both Premiers ( 3-15x50 & 5-25x56 Heritage ) & S&B PMIIs ( 4-16x50 & 5-25x56 ) , and have not had ANY problem with my Benders at ALL , and I cannot say that about me Premiers , thats my actual experience .
I also find the more std way of re-zeroing the knobs , on the Benders much easier , than the camlock & clicking method of the Premiers , maybe thats just me .

Which AI 338 rifle , the older AWSM , or the newer AX338 , either way I would go with a 5-25x56 PMII , FFP , with P4F reticle , and CW turn direction knobs , the AI rifles just look RIGHT with a Bender , maybe thats just ME again .

What can are you going to use on her , AI , BT or a AU borelock SL7 ?

Also be aware AI , have just brought out a AX bipod , as well as a variant of the AX338 ( ie the PSR AX338 , this is easier to swap out the barrel & has a different RH folding stock design ) .

IF you have NOT ordered YET , I would reccomend the AX338 , over the AWSM 338 .

Later Chris

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Hi Chris, AX338, AI can.
Thanks for the input.
Re the FFP, I'm ranging with binos, not the reticule, and I'm used to 2nd FP, can you walk me thru the advantage of FFP?
Thanks,

Mine are not marked Optikonia , and where they where made , I have no idea as Premier kept things almost secret , but I think they always claimed the lens came from Europe/Germany , and my main concerns , have nothing to do with the optical quality , its to do with the design , and you bring up what I forgot about , the MTC function , it sucks big time , and I would not have it in any scope given a choice .
I donot like the camlock zeroing proceedure , and the clicking whilst doing it , that and para issues , and although have not used the 5-25x , its turret design & camlocks are the same as the 3-15x , I like the idea of the 22mil single turn turret , BUT it maybe not such a good thing in reality , as the clicks would have to be very very close to one another .

So reguardless as to where the Premier is manufactured , it still probabliy uses the same turrets/camlocks & internal mechs , & MTC clicks as well , so maybe not much change over the things I found I did not like in my 3-15x50 .

I know they changed the size of the camlock levers on the 5-25x56mm model , so that is maybe 1 mod , also know they sent out dual spring clickers to all who had the 1st 3-15x scopes , as they had issues with the original single spring clickers , also know the 1st 3-15x are stronger than the current model , and that was soley about being alot cheaper to manufacture .

Most issues with the new Benders seem around the ones that have MTC knobs , none of mine have , and I will not buy any that do .


OK , Mistel ,

In reguards to FFP , some like it , others not , the main concern with it for LR use is that the cross hair grows thicker as you power UP , but If you limit your top end mag , ie 25-30x , and use a good design/thickness , most of this is minimised .
As far as ranging with the reticle , most would argue that its only accurate enough for rough range estimates of 0-450m , and because you can judge these my eye at these short dist , plus the traj is relatively flat in this zone as to render accurate ranging a complete waste of time ( remember in the field , all tgts will mainly be unknown sizes as well ) .
For me , FFP means , quick hold offs , no matter the magnification , and corrections seen , ie fall of shot , can in reverse be dialled straight onto scope .

Be aware , that Ase Utra , have a muzzle brake , 18x1.5mm thread , that uses a locking SS suppressor over the top of the brake , ( borelock , SL7 ) .

As with any suppressor , be forever vigilant , as they can , and do unscrew at the worst time , for that reason , I am looking at the SL7 borelock suppressor .

You will find the rifle very smooth in operation , and it has more room in magazine to load long , and the barrel twist is more inline for running 300gr bullets ( 1-9.35 twist ) , I would reccomend Lapua brass or RUAG , heard both are good , my actual experience is only with Lapua to date .

If you cannot get the new AX bipod ( you need both AX bipod & AX adapter mount ) , this will fit straight into the older AW , AWM , AWSM rifles and AICS stocks , just as the bipod , then use a Harris or Atlas etc .

If you have no spare mags , then you need to order some ASAP , AI are seriously back ordered .

Later Chris


Later

Chris,

I'm still happy to swap my PMII for your Prem if you want? CCW turrets though.

Yeap , as you know the only thing , that put me OFF was the CCW , will look at doing a swap in person , so we can both see the scopes in person , RE the glass etc .
I travel up to AKL now and then , so will sort something out next time I'm up your way .

Cheers Chris

5-25 x 56.

My 1st choice ATACR, then Premier, then S&B :)

Whats the eye relief on the Atacr like, it looks a fairly short scope?

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Originally Posted by jakewire

Whats the eye relief on the Atacr like, it looks a fairly short scope?

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90mm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jakewire

Whats the eye relief on the Atacr like, it looks a fairly short scope?

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:)

Pretty big scope, it is a NF after all eye relief probably about 3.5" - 90mm

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...ps42bcf322.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...ps70499ac7.jpg

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/...ps69c66815.jpg

Thanks
I meant not overall length but distance between lens for mount.Even with a rail I often need to crowd my stocks
Probably an eye sight thing with me rather than a scope thing.
Photos show what I need
Cheers.

Sorry mistral for piggy backing on to this but,

Im looking at new scope and I am wondering between FFP and SFP. The scope will be a vortex PST 4-16x50. A worry is that the fine reticle will be too fine on low power for hunting to use.
It will top my 270wsm at present, but the barrel may get replaced with 7 something when shot out.

once again a bit off topic but close ish. And certainly not anywhere near the money you guys are talking