Thread: Redundant Calibres

Originally Posted by Tahr

It surprises me that 6.5x55 is mentioned in this thread as possibly being redundant. Tikka still make them (as does Blaser).
There must be thousands of the M96 & 93 ex service rifles in NZ.
Mine is a modern (20 years old) S&L and is superb.
N560 and 140 AMAX or Gold Dots at 2840fps and its good for anything. 21.5" barrel.

Its the second 6.5x55 I have had and they both have been superbly accurate.

The S&L is my only heirloom rifle and its ear marked to go on to my sons. I even keep a little note book tracking the loads and details, and the loaded ammo in stock so that they can just pick it up and use it when the time inevitably comes.

Greetings @ Tahr,
In the very early 1990's a friend and I were chronographing some 6.5x55 loads on my new 35P. One load was the Norma 140 grain load. This chronographed 2,750 fps. a little faster than claimed for the highly touted 147 grain load in the Creedmoor. Seems to me we have not made much progress in 30 years.
Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @ Tahr,
In the very early 1990's a friend and I were chronographing some 6.5x55 loads on my new 35P. One load was the Norma 140 grain load. This chronographed 2,750 fps. a little faster than claimed for the highly touted 147 grain load in the Creedmoor. Seems to me we have not made much progress in 30 years.
Grandpamac.

The new news is the old news

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @ Tahr,
In the very early 1990's a friend and I were chronographing some 6.5x55 loads on my new 35P. One load was the Norma 140 grain load. This chronographed 2,750 fps. a little faster than claimed for the highly touted 147 grain load in the Creedmoor. Seems to me we have not made much progress in 30 years.
Grandpamac.

is the development of these new cartridges really about progress tho ...... or is it about profit ? as you evidenced the velocity is comparable
6.5cm = 6.5x55
7mm08 = 7x57
to name a couple
it leads me to wonder manufacturers can build lighter rifles with less materials to produce similar results lower build cost equals bigger profit? or am i just cynical?

Originally Posted by scotty

is the development of these new cartridges really about progress tho ...... or is it about profit ? as you evidenced the velocity is comparable
6.5cm = 6.5x55
7mm08 = 7x57
to name a couple
it leads me to wonder manufacturers can build lighter rifles with less materials to produce similar results lower build cost equals bigger profit? or am i just cynical?

Same could be said about the 7PRC & 7RM

Its about action & magazine length, efficiency & twist rates, the 6.5 CM is an AR10 cartridge

one could add some oldies now thankfully redundant - 16 gauge shotgun ( still have Dads old 1890 hammer gun -not to be fired ) .22 short .22 birdshot most all bloody useless - although I understand the short was popular early days indoor target shooting - but some one here can answer this one -I have always wondered about -if a .22 was supposed to be for short-long and long rifle as many early .22 were stamped then surely the jump of a short from breech to rifling must give the start of rifling problems - one old remington pump .22 I had -very clear ring about 1in from breech end - I often wondered if that was to many shorts early days as it was from twenties

Originally Posted by Tahr

It surprises me that 6.5x55 is mentioned in this thread as possibly being redundant. Tikka still make them (as does Blaser).
There must be thousands of the M96 & 93 ex service rifles in NZ.
Mine is a modern (20 years old) S&L and is superb.
N560 and 140 AMAX or Gold Dots at 2840fps and its good for anything. 21.5" barrel.

Its the second 6.5x55 I have had and they both have been superbly accurate.

The S&L is my only heirloom rifle and its ear marked to go on to my sons. I even keep a little note book tracking the loads and details, and the loaded ammo in stock so that they can just pick it up and use it when the time inevitably comes.

Everybody knows the 308 was made redundant 61 years before it was designed.

Anything with Creedmore after it will be redundant in the near future

7x61 Sharp & Hart

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

7x61 Sharp & Hart

In a beautiful rear locking S&L. Action like silk.

Some, not all are about wring the last bit of accuracy or speed with every trick in the book.
Some of them are other cartridges tweaked with a sharper shoulder, shorter or longer neck with less body taper maybe with a shorter case.
In other calibres like the 6.5 prc they are attempting to get close to the speed of the 6.5 rem mag and 264 win mag by using a fatter case with no useless belt.
The new 277 cartridges are the same
The 270 cal has never been a mainstay of the target groupies.
To make it perform better than some of the newcomers like the 6.5s, they want to use higher BC projectiles which is fine but need a faster twist and while they are at it they develop a better case to make it go quicker. And so on

7.62x39 is a great round.
Ammo can be very cheap, generally easy to find, light recoiling and reasonably effective on medium game.
My kids prefer shooting my Ruger Ranch which is surprisingly accurate even with the FMJ ammo.
Nothing too flash but great to be able to go out for a decent shoot without breaking the bank.

Greetings All,
I was sitting in our living room this morning, between outside jobs, thinking about what I may put in this post and the unmistakable first few bars of Black Magic Woman came through the speakers. I started thinking "Is this song obsolete as it was recorded over 50 years ago?" Next "Is the .270 obsolete because it was introduced almost 100 years ago?" To me the answer is no to both questions.

Cartridges can be broadly classified into three main groups.

Current.
Still chambered by a number of manufacturers and both ammunition and components are readily available. Well in normal times anyway. Examples would be .308W, .223 Rem and in Europe the 7.92 x 57 Mauser. The latter is still chambered by most European manufacturers.
Obsolescent.
Infrequently chambered today but ammunition and components still usually available in normal times. .222Rem, 7X57 Mauser. .303 British are examples here.
Obsolete.
No longer chambered today. Ammunition and components like cases hard to find. A handloaders proposition generally. 6.5 Remington Magnum and some of the WSSM cartridge are examples.
So where does your favourite cartridge fit? I rather like the obsolescent and obsolete ones myself.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings All,
I was sitting in our living room this morning, between outside jobs, thinking about what I may put in this post and the unmistakable first few bars of Black Magic Woman came through the speakers. I started thinking "Is this song obsolete as it was recorded over 50 years ago?" Next "Is the .270 obsolete because it was introduced almost 100 years ago?" To me the answer is no to both questions.

Cartridges can be broadly classified into three main groups.

Current.
Still chambered by a number of manufacturers and both ammunition and components are readily available. Well in normal times anyway. Examples would be .308W, .223 Rem and in Europe the 7.92 x 57 Mauser. The latter is still chambered by most European manufacturers.
Obsolescent.
Infrequently chambered today but ammunition and components still usually available in normal times. .222Rem, 7X57 Mauser. .303 British are examples here.
Obsolete.
No longer chambered today. Ammunition and components like cases hard to find. A handloaders proposition generally. 6.5 Remington Magnum and some of the WSSM cartridge are examples.
So where does your favourite cartridge fit? I rather like the obsolescent and obsolete ones myself.
Regards Grandpamac.

In ref to your 2nd to last line - my favourite is 7x57 - not obsolete, just getting left behind because people think it's getting old.

The other is 6.5x54MS and I don't know if any commercial company loads for those. They can also be difficult to find cases for, or at least until Privi started making them - they probably load them too.
The old 'standby' Norma quit loading them years ago, but still load its cuzzies the 6.5 Jap and 6.5 Carcano.
Never quite understood why Norma quit on those, and I know it's all about making something that sells ............... and maybe they didn't.
The best bullet for that was the old Norma 139gr Vulkan - and that too is discontinued, in that particular weight anyway.
The second best bullet was the 156gr Alaska with the steel case. They were a good bullet, but the new '156gr Alaska' is copper jacketted - and you can't get them here any way.
Fortunately I've scrounged a short lifetime's supply of those - and cases, both Norma and Privi.

That's not a 'bitch' it's just the way it is - but that 6.5x54MS kills with the best of them ............. just not out to where people think deer are these days .............. and that just might be why.

Originally Posted by SF90

In ref to your 2nd to last line - my favourite is 7x57 - not obsolete, just getting left behind because people think it's getting old.

The other is 6.5x54MS and I don't know if any commercial company loads for those. They can also be difficult to find cases for, or at least until Privi started making them - they probably load them too.
The old 'standby' Norma quit loading them years ago, but still load its cuzzies the 6.5 Jap and 6.5 Carcano.
Never quite understood why Norma quit on those, and I know it's all about making something that sells ............... and maybe they didn't.
The best bullet for that was the old Norma 139gr Vulkan - and that too is discontinued, in that particular weight anyway.
The second best bullet was the 156gr Alaska with the steel case. They were a good bullet, but the new '156gr Alaska' is copper jacketted - and you can't get them here any way.
Fortunately I've scrounged a short lifetime's supply of those - and cases, both Norma and Privi.

That's not a 'bitch' it's just the way it is - but that 6.5x54MS kills with the best of them ............. just not out to where people think deer are these days .............. and that just might be why.

Greetings @SF90,
The 7x57 is not obsolete. I listed as obsolescent as it is seldom chambered, even in Europe. They now seem to favour the 7x64. Components and ammo should be available for a very long time for the 7x57.
Regards Grandpamac.

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Cartridges can be broadly classified into three main groups.

Current.
Still chambered by a number of manufacturers and both ammunition and components are readily available. Well in normal times anyway. Examples would be .308W, .223 Rem and in Europe the 7.92 x 57 Mauser. The latter is still chambered by most European manufacturers.
Obsolescent.
Infrequently chambered today but ammunition and components still usually available in normal times. .222Rem, 7X57 Mauser. .303 British are examples here.
Obsolete.
No longer chambered today. Ammunition and components like cases hard to find. A handloaders proposition generally. 6.5 Remington Magnum and some of the WSSM cartridge are examples.
So where does your favourite cartridge fit? I rather like the obsolescent and obsolete ones myself.
Regards Grandpamac.

I think that sums it up perfectly. Some people might think one cartridge is in one group and not another. But overall its pretty clear.

260 Rem i would call Obsolescent. 7x57 and 6.5x55 would be borderline, possibly current in Europe but not the rest of the world?
Wonder how long 7mm rem mag and 300 win mag will be current. again just like the 7x57 an 6.5x55 still will be heaps of rifles floating around and might stay current in one location more than another.

What about New wildcats that have not made it to SAAMI spec yet? 22 creedmoor for example. Not exactly obsolete as its new. But exactly the same situation as obsolete cartridge's