Redundant Calibres

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ranger 888

Problem is today there is too much choice...back in the 1990s the USA churned out 24 new calibres in a year. By contrast the early New Zealand Govt. deer hunters made do with the .303 (open sights) for deer, goats, pigs and wapiti, and private hunters had WW2 surplus 8mm rifles available as well. Then the .222, .243, and .270 calibres crept in. A new generation of hunters now has the .300 RUM, 7mm RUM, .300 WSM, .325 WSM, .270 WSM, 7mm SAUM, 7mm WSM, .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .338 RUM, .375 RUM, .204 Ruger, .22 Grendel, .22 TCM, 6mm TCU, .28 Nosler, 6.5 PRC, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 Grendel, 7mm LRM, .300 Blackout, .338 Edge, and the .450 Bushmaster. Really? Are these all necessary??

---

I own a 223WSSM. Never see them around. Fantastic killer. Great with 62gr Barnes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bill999

there are extremly cheep howa x39 barreled actions at 55six at the moment

---

Yeah. No heavy barrels
and wrong time of year though. A standard profile cut to 16" would probably be ok though.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T.FOYE

Just want to say that the 6.5cm is a more inherantly accurate case. I dont own one but as a swede owner I've found I needed to go to the enth degree to beat them. So i don't think it's correct to say that the creedmoor is the same, it's not as it's more efficient. Produces similar pressures with less powder.

---

That's fair comment - but I wonder how many who brought into it can actually shoot that well.

I did get interested in black powder target shooting for a bit, got the action and went down to talk about Badger barrels down the range when I got roped into spotting shot fall at the three hundred yard range, and even with binoculars couldn't see what those guys could with the naked eye.
That ended up 'stillborn' ... realised right then and there I could never be competitive.

I'm a hunter first and foremost and that's why I got a gun - and my hunting is close, thirty metres or less for the most part. And that's the way I like it - I've done the 'farm hunt' where shots were out around 400 yards and I never fired a shot - I wasn't set up for it.
Thought about it and decided it was all a bit foreign for me. I certainly found it fascinating, all those deer to pick and choose from - but I decided I liked it the way I'd been doing it and if my gun (me) could hit a saucer at fifty yards, then that's all i needed.
I have 'return to zero' rings on my two main guns now and often hunt with the scope in my pack as it's more comfortable to handle a bare gun - and I shoot a lot down the range with 'irons' - wouldn't have a gun without them - and I don't.

But were I interested in long range shooting - more 'inherantly accurate' certainly has merit and helps take an 'unknown' out of the equation :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beavis

7.62x39 has become largely redundant in NZ

---

still a few bolt actions in use in the bush....pretty good cartridge for young folks and sub 150 yard deer ,pigs,goats.... and a few bakail singles too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by T.FOYE

Just want to say that the 6.5cm is a more inherantly accurate case. I dont own one but as a swede owner I've found I needed to go to the enth degree to beat them. So i don't think it's correct to say that the creedmoor is the same, it's not as it's more efficient. Produces similar pressures with less powder.

---

Greetings,
The reason that the Creedmoor ( named for a rifle range on a moor owned by a Mr Creed in what is now New York. Well done to @T.FOYE for correct spelling) produces similar pressure with less powder than the 6.5x55 is due t0 the Creedmoor case being smaller. Loading problems stem from the contempt that some in the US have for things not invented there. Yes it is more difficult to load for due to this but given a decent quality rifle, decent cases such as Lapua and careful working around undersize dies from the US makers the 6.5 Swede is a very accurate cartridge. The Creedmoor gets over most of this by being a modern cartridge and no doubt the short actions help with accuracy but well loaded there is little between them in my opinion at least.
Regards Grandpamac.

with a fast twist .223 now shooting 70-80grn projectiles....it could be argued the mighty EBRG/twoforfree/.243w in redundant...unless you happen to own one and are still happily snotting over redskins left right n centre....
having a play with a 30/30 yesterday surely showed me what a decent barrel can do to an old cartridge..... as have said before the .22hp Savage if given a .224 calibre barrel would shine outstandingly well and give some of these modern numbers a run for the money.... much nicer in a break open too...

Re twists - what happens if a light grain projectile is fired through a fast twist barrel?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TeRei

I own a 223WSSM. Never see them around. Fantastic killer. Great with 62gr Barnes.

---

Got plenty of brand new brass here for that

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

Re twists - what happens if a light grain projectile is fired through a fast twist barrel?

---

It should shoot well. I shoot 55 grain projectiles in my 8 twist .223 and they shoot well.
GPM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schwen

I have an acquaintance who goes on and on about the magnificence of the 204 Ruger (despite not having one). Is it any good or not? Can you buy ammo for it at H&F?

Disclaimer: Centrefire I use .308, 30-30 and .223. Rimfire 22LR, 22WMR and 17HMR

---

The 204 an awesome calibre for long range small game

Talking of accuracy and the quest for an accurate calibre/rifle, most modern firearms can shoot better than the person holding them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flyblown

Have a look at the list of cartridges (not calibres ffs!) in Quickload and mesmerise yourself at the sheer number of cartridges you’ve never even heard of.

So many odd little men in their sheds making mostly pointless wildcats out of perfectly good pre-existing cartridge cases. But, to be fair, wildcatting is a hobby like many other mostly pointless exercises and if that’s what floats your boat, then go for it. And of course it must be remembered that some of these wildcats have spawned globally dominant cartridges that are already decades old and probably won’t go out of production for decades more to come.

The way I look at today’s new cartridges, is not to focus on the cartridge alone but to look at the barrel twist and projectiles promoted along with it. There’s a lot of cynical commentary about marketing (aimed at Hornady mostly) but the fact is that their new products are very smartly designed and have absolutely raised the bar for some of the long-standing calibres. Efficient, accurate, competition proven and thoroughly successful in the field, easy to load, excellent factory ammunition (e.g. Precision Hunter). Compare the performance of Precision Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor to the traditional 6.5x55 factory ammo and you’ve got a great example of how lots of small incremental improvements add up to make a thoroughly superior product.

Contrast this to Sierra, who in their efforts to keep up with Hornady made an absolute dogs breakfast of the launch of the GameChanger bullets, screwing up the twist rate recommendations for the long-for-calibre bullets (e.g. 90 & 100gr 6mm), with a design that is fickle at best (putting in nicely) with the short bearing surface and very long ogive.

Who won the battle of coloured tips? Red or Green?

If you’re looking for a recent example of a cartridge that’s on a one way ride to redundancy, look at the 6.8 Western. There’s a reason Hornady has been so successful with new cartridges (and bullets, and getting rifle manufacturers to adopt the chamberings). Winchester & Browning probably should have considered why this is the case before they spent all that money designing, manufacturing and promoting a case that’s pretty much disappeared in 6 months. Go check out the availability of 6.8 Western related products… if you bought one of those in mid-2021 I’ll bet you’re wishing you got a .270 Winchester.

---

Thank you:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maca49

The 204 an awesome calibre for long range small game

---

"pop"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

It should shoot well. I shoot 55 grain projectiles in my 8 twist .223 and they shoot well.
GPM.

---

So why do manufacturers make rifles with a slow twist?

(I’m intrigued with this issue!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

some needed to go - I had a 30M1 carbine for awhile - used when mate and I went pighunting - damn useless caliber--as was the 32-20 - gutless both of them unless the pig was 6 feet away - once tried to shoot a stag at about 80 yards with 30 M1 - took 3 to get it despite all good shots -

---

That's an interesting comment. There's a heap of comments on US hunting forums about the old guys who did all their deer hunting with surplus M1 carbines. I've never fired one and have no experience with them, although it was always on the want list... too late now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

So why do manufacturers make rifles with a slow twist?

(I’m intrigued with this issue!)

---

Cowardice,
Years ago it was thought that too fast a twist made projectiles shoot funny due to "being spun of their feet". Later it was found to be largely a myth. Second rate projectiles perhaps but not the good quality ones. Myths die hard in the US and manufacturers were scared that rifles would not sell. This in spite of knowing better and being told the same thing by most writers.
Grandpamac.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schwen

I have an acquaintance who goes on and on about the magnificence of the 204 Ruger (despite not having one). Is it any good or not? Can you buy ammo for it at H&F?

Disclaimer: Centrefire I use .308, 30-30 and .223. Rimfire 22LR, 22WMR and 17HMR

---

I have a 204 centrefire rifle for shooting varments at longer ranges and it works great for that purpose for me. I shoot rabbits plovers cats magpies etc,it shoots very flat and a 32gr bullet is doing 4200 fps or thereabouts, and yes some sports shops sell the ammo, or if not ask them to stock it for you and they will. I reload for it as well, it has the 222magnum case behind a 20 caliber projectile great caliber for hard-to-get-at pests that stay out of range of rimfire love it;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Finnwolf

So why do manufacturers make rifles with a slow twist?

(I’m intrigued with this issue!)

---

because back a few years ago..read fifty or more..the fast barrel burners like 22-250 and swift would blow up projectiles ..its a balancing act,always has been and always will be ..there are three parts to it... how fast bullet is being driven, how fast its being spun and how hard/stout/soft/fragile the make up of bullet/projectile itself

you can drive a solid copper just about as fast as you want and spin it as fast as you want and it will hold together...within reason
soft lead you drive too fast,or spin too fast and it will foul rifling really fast,stripping off leadinto grooves and fast enough it wont make it to target,will just turn into dust on the way...you can vapourise a varmit projectile in a 22-250 easy enough now...
slow down the twist and its more forgiving..... projectiles can still be driven fast and hold together..within reason.
if we all has fast twist barrels...the guys pushing projectile slowly would be fine..but stoke it along and it would have to be so darn hard it would struggle to expand at all once it slowed down a bit.
the expansion thing is ALSO two fold....there is straight out squashing effect..like car hitting brick wall and crumpling and then there is the spin..think of bucket of water swung around in arc..its pulling outwards,centrifugal force...rounded figures a pill going 3000 fps in a 1;12 twist is doing 180,000 rpm so its trying to pull itself apart...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Cowardice,
Years ago it was thought that too fast a twist made projectiles shoot funny due to "being spun of their feet". Later it was found to be largely a myth. Second rate projectiles perhaps but not the good quality ones. Myths die hard in the US and manufacturers were scared that rifles would not sell. This in spite of knowing better and being told the same thing by most writers.
Grandpamac.

---

I beg to differ...

if a fella has two .223s (which many on here do) one with a say 1;8 twist and one with a 1;12 twist... the fast twist is spinning projectile half as fast again... if fed eggzachary the same load..the 1;8 will be more explody and the 1;12 will penetrate further...HOPEFULLY someone will have photographic evidence of this????

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ben Waimata

That's an interesting comment. There's a heap of comments on US hunting forums about the old guys who did all their deer hunting with surplus M1 carbines. I've never fired one and have no experience with them, although it was always on the want list... too late now.

---

useless squaw guns yup fun to shoot mates and I had some fun with my old M1 but shoot deer unless within 50 yards

Greetings @Micky Duck and All,
Some .22 calibre projectiles had soft enough jackets that they blew up in mid air if driven too fast. With a fast twist this would happen at a lower velocity. Hornady SX springs to mind. These are tender projectiles though and I doubt if a slow twist would make them penetrate much if at all. Projectiles designed to penetrate have much stouter jackets so don't fragment like the soft ones.
I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

because back a few years ago..read fifty or more..the fast barrel burners like 22-250 and swift would blow up projectiles ..its a balancing act,always has been and always will be ..there are three parts to it... how fast bullet is being driven, how fast its being spun and how hard/stout/soft/fragile the make up of bullet/projectile itself

you can drive a solid copper just about as fast as you want and spin it as fast as you want and it will hold together...within reason
soft lead you drive too fast,or spin too fast and it will foul rifling really fast,stripping off leadinto grooves and fast enough it wont make it to target,will just turn into dust on the way...you can vapourise a varmit projectile in a 22-250 easy enough now...
slow down the twist and its more forgiving..... projectiles can still be driven fast and hold together..within reason.
if we all has fast twist barrels...the guys pushing projectile slowly would be fine..but stoke it along and it would have to be so darn hard it would struggle to expand at all once it slowed down a bit.
the expansion thing is ALSO two fold....there is straight out squashing effect..like car hitting brick wall and crumpling and then there is the spin..think of bucket of water swung around in arc..its pulling outwards,centrifugal force...rounded figures a pill going 3000 fps in a 1;12 twist is doing 180,000 rpm so its trying to pull itself apart...

---

Ta MD, just goes to show that you’re never too old to learn!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barry the hunter

my best quess is that never ever will 6.5 crd replace .308

---

I had 2x308 rifles a Forbes 308 which is an Ultralite rifle just over 5 LBs 21" barrel till I put a Schmidt&Bender 2.5-10x56 scope on it and is a great lowlight bush gun as well as a Tikka 308 until I spotted a 6.5 Creedmore barrel on TradeMe that was new but had been taken off a Tikka and replaced with a carbon-fiber barrel at a good price so I swapped those 2 and now have a spear 18" 308 barrel for my Tikka.
the only reason I did this was quite a few of my shooting mates swapped to 6.5 and were giving me shit about 308, THERE IS nothing wrong with 308 it has the best range of projectiles on the market {I reload} or ammo that EVERY sports shop in NZ will have on their shelves, not like a lot of other calibers which can be a blessing if you run out. I run 178gr Amax projectiles&2208 powder in my Forbes and mainly use it for harder-to-get-around hunting places{bush} bugger all gets up and runs away with that recipe and if they do they don,t go very far at all:yuush: The 6.5 is a very useful caliber the Swedes have been using it for over 100 years for a very good reason it kills things and is very slippery in windy conditions and shoots a bit flatter than the 308 but not much I think the 308 with the right projectile/powder combination will kill a lot further out then say a 6.5 creed which, in my opinion, is only ethical out to 500m same with the 260 I would say the 6.5prc type cartridge would kill further out but I do not know I am now stepping outside my realm so best I shut up, all I know is I now have a 308 and a 6.5 Creed so I can now sit on the broody fence and not be called a wanker for owning one or the other because I own both
P.S.::wtfsmilie: now you will provably call me a double wanker.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Micky Duck and All,
Some .22 calibre projectiles had soft enough jackets that they blew up in mid air if driven too fast. With a fast twist this would happen at a lower velocity. Hornady SX springs to mind. These are tender projectiles though and I doubt if a slow twist would make them penetrate much if at all. Projectiles designed to penetrate have much stouter jackets so don't fragment like the soft ones.
I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

---

When Dad got his first 222 in the 60’s (a Parker-Hale, a dog of a rifle!) he sighted it in with the target on a piece of Pinex, when we went to check the target there was a little pile of shedded jackets on the ground under it - the lead had gone through but not the jackets! Can’t remember the ammo brand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Micky Duck and All,
Some .22 calibre projectiles had soft enough jackets that they blew up in mid air if driven too fast. With a fast twist this would happen at a lower velocity. Hornady SX springs to mind. These are tender projectiles though and I doubt if a slow twist would make them penetrate much if at all. Projectiles designed to penetrate have much stouter jackets so don't fragment like the soft ones.
I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

---

50grn hornady spsx were AWESOME on wallabies driven along at around the 3000fps mark.... wouldnt want to shoot big red stag in shoulder with them..but wouldnt want to try that with any varmit projectile....and that is the 4th thing to consider...match your load to the job you want it to do...

I wonder if the manufacturers will take bit of breather for awhile and try to get some return on some of these new cartridges they’re churning out ie: the PRC range!! Rifle manufacturers must tear their hair sometimes as they barely get tooled for one then get bombed with another. 7PRC over the 6.8Western as an example.

Well I’ve just finished building a rifle in (probably an obsolete cartridge) or at least not required for this country. A .358 Winchester. My .308 will probably do everything the .358 will, but I have an interest in its potential to kill larger deer really fast and hopefully on the spot. I’m also interested in the concept of less meat damage due to lower velocity.
I also like to be different, call it contrary if you wish… I’m looking forward to the challenge of mastering a rifle that has the potential to knock me round a bit. For years I’ve shied away from recoil but it’s just a mental game that I want to get over.

There’s no practical reason to have one other than I want to, and I think it’s cool as hell. What other reasons do I need?

How hard can it be to tool up for a new cartridge?
It's just a different reamer. Nothing else is new. Various action lengths to suit are already produced . Various bolt head sizes already produced.
Only issue I can see is possibily taking away production time from existing chamberings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnDuxbury

How old are you two, you have to be kidding. The 7x57 was quite popular, and theres still a bunch of them floating around. It just got overwritten by the .308 in new rifles, and then the imports were mostly British rifles like the BSA, which the 7x57 was very common, changed to the US, who didnt chamber it in new rifles.
The 7x57 didn't gain traction...

---

CAC making 308 ammo helped the demise of the 7x57. Shame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Well I’ve just finished building a rifle in (probably an obsolete cartridge) or at least not required for this country. A .358 Winchester. My .308 will probably do everything the .358 will, but I have an interest in its potential to kill larger deer really fast and hopefully on the spot. I’m also interested in the concept of less meat damage due to lower velocity.
I also like to be different, call it contrary if you wish… I’m looking forward to the challenge of mastering a rifle that has the potential to knock me round a bit. For years I’ve shied away from recoil but it’s just a mental game that I want to get over.

There’s no practical reason to have one other than I want to, and I think it’s cool as hell. What other reasons do I need?

---

None whatsoever. My son had a 358 Win for a while. A very flexible cartridge, much like the .308. You will enjoy it.
GPM.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nugget connaisseur

How hard can it be to tool up for a new cartridge?
It's just a different reamer. Nothing else is new. Various action lengths to suit are already produced . Various bolt head sizes already produced.
Only issue I can see is possibily taking away production time from existing chamberings.

---

When multinational companies are deciding to manufacture an item by the tens of thousands or more I think there are just a few more considerations than just the physical manufacturing process.

you can always load down the 358w...lots of folks do it.... plenty of lighter projectiles around that will work fine at less than warp speed too.

i still use a 358 norma occasionally, i have a lot of cases and projectiles for this but my main rifle now is a suppressed 308 begara take down

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hunter_Nick

Well I’ve just finished building a rifle in (probably an obsolete cartridge) or at least not required for this country. A .358 Winchester. My .308 will probably do everything the .358 will, but I have an interest in its potential to kill larger deer really fast and hopefully on the spot. I’m also interested in the concept of less meat damage due to lower velocity.
I also like to be different, call it contrary if you wish… I’m looking forward to the challenge of mastering a rifle that has the potential to knock me round a bit. For years I’ve shied away from recoil but it’s just a mental game that I want to get over.

There’s no practical reason to have one other than I want to, and I think it’s cool as hell. What other reasons do I need?

---

35 Whelen next ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by grandpamac

I had an interesting experience using the plated Frontier projectiles in a two groove .303 barrel. Worth a try Nigel. Accuracy was nothing special and there was a spiral of lead plating on the target face where the jacket had ruptured. Jacketed projectiles shot fine, even 30 calibre ones. Always meant to try them in a 5 groove barrel but have not got round to it yet.
Regards Grandpamac.

---

Mmm..what do you reckon the capabilities of those frontiers top out at? 303 is a 1:10 twist correct? I have an Interarms Mark X in 308 with 1:10 twist and a bunch of Frontier CMJ flat point .308dia ( semi RN really) 150gn projectiles. What max vel do you think they would hold up for?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jhon

Mmm..what do you reckon the capabilities of those frontiers top out at? 303 is a 1:10 twist correct? I have an Interarms Mark X in 308 with 1:10 twist and a bunch of Frontier CMJ flat point .308dia ( semi RN really) 150gn projectiles. What max vel do you think they would hold up for?

---

Greetings @Jhon,
I was using the same load as I use with these projectiles in my .308, 32 grains of AR2206H. In the .308 these chronograph 1,910 fps and shoot really well. I think that it was the very deep two groove rifling in the .303 that did them in. You should be able push them harder than that if you want to in your .308. My load does shoot way low compared to the full power loads so I need to dial to zero them when I use them
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by muzza

The Whelen is a good cartridge , but so is the 338-06 . I have both but prefer my 9.3 x 62 ...

---

Greetings All,
Nah, all overweight .30-06s. 350 Rem Mag has more eye appeal as an "A what?" rifle but is a little cramped in a short mag though.
GPM.
PS. There is also a 9.3 BS, 350 necked up.

Ive got a bunch of older cal, the 25-20, 32-20, 7x57, and 7x57R getting lots of mileage in the hills, .22 hornet 6.5x54,and 7x65R getting a few hunts a year.
.17 hornet and a lightweight6.5 creedmore are my only newer cartridges,
Plenty of 50 plus year olds, .358 win and 9.3x64, 7x64, .222 etc.
During the compoent and ammo shortage, i found sum of the older cals, easier to source brass, drying up now,

@muzza 338-06 easiest way to get a modern cartridge closest to the 318 Westley Richards
Would be a cranky thing