Righto, so I "think" I have a speedy 17 cal itch that needs to be scratched :P
Keen to hear your thoughts on the practicalities of a super fast / flat shooting caliber (17 WSM or 17 mach IV vs something more vanilla (223) with a varmint reticle or using something like CDS.
Looking at the numbers, even with a 20gr Vmax doing 4K and zeroed at 200yds, when you go past 250yds the drop becomes too big to simply point-and-shoot.
So if you are going to be dialing, just stick with bog-standard 223 ?
It would depend on when you want to start using a rangefinder.
Also on how accurately you can use the rangefinder on flat or curving ground.
To get the best out of a flat shooting calibre at shorter ranges you will want a very low mounted scope too.
It might depend on what you want that "calomine lotion" for targets hunting or pesties. The 223 brings to the table bigger projectiles that handle wind better but at the expence of bullet drop. That isnt all together a bad thing as gravitys a constant as opposed to wind which is well gusty.
The 223 magnum never really caught on, the 204 based on it did and now people are renecking 204s to 223 to get better speeds with heavier projectiles.
I had a,204 for a while it was neat making hares disappear but the ammunition cost and it being a bit fiddly to reload sent me back to the 223, with a good bdc scope dialling on these isnt really needed till you get out to around 350-400 meters at which point its a marginal call on it being considered humane on the bigger things like goats.
Biggest issue is wind with those small calibers, even a 5mph crosswind will push you 6 inches out at 250 yards from a 100 yard zero. Can be very frustrating and result in injured game.
I like dailing for pin point accuracy no matter what caliber, other than 22lr. Wind I hold for.
Horses for courses, depending on the type of country your shooting and also the style of shooting you want to do.
For me I could shoot out past 400 mtrs all day long here in central on rabbits but it isn't the type of shooting that I want to do anymore.
I am happy with a 17HMR out to 200 and that does the job.
I had a 223 and shot out to 450 mtrs on fluffy things but it doesn't float my boat anymore.
A mate has just brought and set up a new 17WSM to hit out to 300.
With the 223 I used a ballistic app and recticle , to lazy to dial .
I like the 17 cal and those little pills sure do the job on rabbits...just depends how you want to skin ( shoot ):) the cat
I found the 17 Terminator with 25 Vmaxs going at 4400 a little under whelming to be fair.
Bloody awesome accurate rifle, put not as graphic as the 204 with 40 Vmaxs on game
The 22-Terminator with 53 Vmaxs to 88 ELDMs takes a lot of beating & if anything else pops up its in great danger :)
I have both the 17WSM and 223
Love the WSM I sold my 17HMR after getting it, that was like going back to vanilla from boysenberry ripple.
I've played with 40gr hornady in the 223 at 3800FPS very pink misty stuff if you can get it to shoot straight
Here's a couple of tables comparing the two with 5mph cross wind to help make up your mind
Sorry the pics are so huge I haven't figured out how to fix that yet
223
Attachment 115503
17WSM
Attachment 115504
Rune my .17HMR 17g out to 200m with 4-16 FFP, past there I play with the .204 40g again with 5-25 FFP, then finish off if a bit bigger with the .22-243 75g again 5-25 FFP
interesting comments so far, tx :thumbsup:
intended for bunnies and magpies, nothing larger
@Bagheera, could you explain the curved vs flat comment for rangefinder ? do you mean TBR issues for slopes ?
from a "theory" point of view something like a 17 fireball pretty much looks like point and shoot out to 250 with a 200 zero (+1.3 at 150, -1.2 at 250)
Unless you are into reloading and fucking around with all that it involves a 17WSM does the same job in rimfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
I think I would be working back from the projectile to choose the caliber. For example, V-max 53gr has a BC of .295 or something close to that which deals with a lot of wind issues. A .222 or .223 with a twist of 1:10 or faster will work with those pills. The up and down (drop) is just half of the picture, it's the left and right (wind drift) that's harder to get on top of.
.204!Quote:
Originally Posted by ebf
It all comes down to the type of land/properties you shoot on.
I use 22lr, 17 hornet and 223.
If i want/need reach and power but the property is too small for safe use of the 223, then the 17 Hornet comes out (used a 17 HMR fot this prior to getting the hornet) The hornet is bloody awesome fun - check out my video I posted in the small game section a couple of days ago. Its the perfect cartridge for orchards and vineyards that are too small or too built up around to use anything larger.
I tend to find that to be meaningfully more "flat shooting" you need about double the powder and reckon you're better off with a moderate speed high BC bullet and dialling or holding with a reticle
Watching ur Path films has almost converted me to 6.5 lolQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
After 250 you are going to have to dial/compensate everything on a small target..
For walk around varminting I reckon you need to carry 2 rifles..
Bit of a waste shooting rabbits 0-150 with the same rifle that you want to work at 400...
Up to 400 some 20s and 224 are options... 17s peter out at 300... over 400 - 6mm the best option, but everything is getting specced up to make it very accurate for small targets...
I want a .17wsm in semi auto with an acog on it. Just cause I have an acog Lying around from a bushmaster I had 2 years ago. ( always had plans to build another AR since the. Not going to happen now
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+1 for 204. 180m zero on mine, 1/2 inch high @ 100m, 1/2 inch low @ 200m so it makes the majority of shooting easy as. Past 220m you'll have to dial but you would have to with other calibers anyway. 20cal 40gr Vmax has a higher BC(.275) than the 55gr 22cal Vmax(.255) which means not only will it get there a whole lot faster, but it will get there with a whole lot less wind drift...
Have shot a lot of rabbits and wobblies, both for myself and with clients. After all the hype and hoopla I find any decent rifle in 222, 223 or 22.250 does all I want. The reality for me is that nearly everything is within 350 metres, you have to actually look for long range targets if thats what floats your boat. I have dial scopes, I have BDC scopes, I have FFP and SFP. The rifle that gets used the most now is either a 223 or a 22.250 with BDC. Guess the distance, pick your aim point, hold on the fluffy and let 'er rip! For fast wobblie action a dial scope is way too slow, but we often range the first one if its out around 350 and then guess the rest off that range. BUT my next scope will have a BDC type reticule in FFP - you dont have to wind the power all the way up for the hashmarks to be correct, and for a lot of my shooting I'm only on 6-8x. Keep it simple
Yes that is very true, but its more the windage advantage available with that same high BC bullet pushed fasterQuote:
Originally Posted by gimp
Try ken at ar 15,he had some the reticle is quite tiny at unity though.Quote:
Originally Posted by berg243
Not sure, dont often buy scopes, but that would have to be an excellent all round option for most of my shooting, will look in to itQuote:
Originally Posted by berg243
Would pay to check I fits first focal plane but bushnell do an AR 223 line of optics that have a bdc reticle for 55 to 62 grain 223 ammo.Quote:
Originally Posted by berg243
Have a Bushnell AR223 scope on my 223, works fine, being SFP the hashmarks are only accurate on full power - think its 18x. As I rarely go up that high I just use good ol' fashioned holdover. But if you have the time, and a rangefinder, the hashmarks are very accurate. Also have a Bushnell Nitro 4-16 sitting here, brand new in the box. It is FFP, but the reticule may be a bit busy for some people doing some fast shooting on the likes of wobblies. Gonna give it a try on a 22.250. They also make smaller Nitro scopes that are FFP with several types of reticules, a 2-10 might work nicely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian 22.
I thought they made smaller mag range AR 223 scopes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Husky1600
It actually lines up fairly well with other calibers too. 1.7 Moa for the first dot. 4.2 or so for the second. As long as its within reasonable distance them the dots would work. Should be some cheap ones coming up now that their main area of usefulness is lost to us.
I was thinking that flat shooting is most advantage when you dont use / carry a range finder and might extend the distance you can shoot without one say in the 100m to 200m bracket.
Second, sometimes ranging accurately can be difficult and the beam could get a false reading off nearer or further ground when you're lying down on flat ground or ranging an animal on the Crest of a ridge / rise. In that situation your lasered range could be out a bit and a flat shooting cartridge would be ok but a rainbow heavy bullet not so good.
