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Thread: Crossing show lines

  1. #1
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    Crossing show lines

    It is interesting talking to people that use dogs to hunt birds that cross with show lines to slow their dogs down to a sedate pace for Jo average.

    I have never agreed with this but does that mean the dog wont hunt well in our conditions ? I invite comments from your experiences either via first hand or what you have heard from others with credibility - I say that because you can talk to any show breeder and their dogs are this and that birdy raingy and what ever all of course while "never being seen"
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  2. #2
    Gold member Pointer's Avatar
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    to quote ex forum member Kawhia,

    "say no to show"
    Kaimaicockher and RCGSP like this.

  3. #3
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    whilst I 100% agree with you "is" there a case to be had for the average Jo who does not know how to train or doesn't give the time to do so .I recognize our Setters and Pointers can be Ferraris in the hands of the lazy ,ignorant hunter .
    I will state a case for a Setter breeder I have talked to that stated his clientele specifically ask for non field trial breed animals but bench dogs as they hunter closer and slower --potentially.

    My personal thoughts if you cant cut it with a well breed Pointing dog get a fat lab or Spaniel .Anyway mine is not the only opinion that counts and it will be interesting to see the thoughts of others also
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  4. #4
    Member upnorth uplander's Avatar
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    theres a line of pointers in NZ that is field trial/ working lines from Ireland, the line has only been bred to show lines in this country, to get that line into our working pointers here would meen a 3/4 working ,1/4 show bred dog, it wasn't done to slow a dog down like your asking and has nothing to do with your question but just wanted to put it out there.

  5. #5
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    Never the less Z it has been done for a reason -do you know why other than for pure confirmation reason ? Do they hunt well or worse
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  6. #6
    Member upnorth uplander's Avatar
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    theres one on the trial scene i think, but thats a 3/4 show,1/4 field , pointer knows which dog it is

  7. #7
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    any idea of its performance at all ?

    Its an interesting concept if it works getting show into the faster dogs especially Setters and Pointers ----buttttt one could ask are they actually any slower or is that just a misconception spread around by those who have added this mix .
    A Setter chap I have spoken to north of Auckland has used show blood and says his dogs hunt how he wants them to -now I don't know as I have not seen them but also an older dog of either breeding will hunt closer possibly due to sheer experience of the handler putting its brakes on a lot over time due to tight cover
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  8. #8
    Member upnorth uplander's Avatar
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    Tony's setters are a mix of different blood lines and they dont hunt out very far at all, his dogs would get out 2x my spaniels and thats it

  9. #9
    Gold member Pointer's Avatar
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    Two things,

    El B I think any breeder of pointers or setters, who puts show into their lines to 'slow them down for hunters' needs to be shot. Thats what they have been selected for, for well over 150 years. I would advise anyone thinking along those lines to perhaps look at other breeds, plenty of closer ranging and slower running pointing breeds out there, take your pick.

    To follow on from uplanders train of thought, I'm going to play the devils advocate. I find this thread interesting so I'll leave two thoughts with everyone and I'd like to see how this topic develops. Should be a goodie if the spaniel cavalry arrives:



    First, a quote - "the dog is more important than the pedigree" - Dr. Leon Mortenson

    Secondly, a dog, 'Speckle of Ardoon'.

    Thoughts anyone?

  10. #10
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    First, a quote - "the dog is more important than the pedigree" - Dr. Leon Mortenson.

    This statement above would back breeding to ability of the dog not its breeding being either or either show or field



    Ardoon Gundogs

    Speckle of Ardoon





    In the Sporting Dog (Oct-Nov 1989) Keith Erlandson looked upon by many field trial enthusiasts as one of the greatest gundog handlers of all time recalled candidly two of his finest dogs in an article entitled 'The Greatest Trial Dogs In My Life' one was Speckle of Ardoon, and the article is reprinted below.

    Another client, Will Sloan from Northern Ireland - known as The Ardoon Man' and nowadays better known in pointer and setter circles than in spaniels - acquired by devious means a cocker bitch which would not work. He mated her to a golden show dog, from a strain which had still retained some working instincts and reared two pups.

    He ran them on to seven months, developed plenty of drive in them by letting them free-hunt rabbits in thick whins and having the odd hare course.

    He phoned me up and said he would send the bitch over for me to train. She was the greatest thing ever, he said. I told him I didn't believe him. She was by a show dog from a non working dam. It could not be done. Well, Nature, in her capriciousness, had decided to take a hand, just to remind us how little we know about breeding, and that at the end of the day, she is still the boss.
    Keith Erlandson with Speckle


    'Speckle' duly arrived and even thought the Irish are sometimes known to exaggerate this was not the case this time. She was everything, and more, that Will claimed. She would hunt any cover with absolute venom, with great drive and style. She would not retrieve to hand but invariably went in the opposite direction and buried the dummy or whatever.

    This was rectified easily. It is frequently a feature of the breed, but once sound on retrieving to hand, she would throw a dead hare around like a sparrow.

    She was red roan, like raspberry jam spread on concrete, weighed twentythree pounds fit and had the most perfect bone and balance, being short coupled and well up on the leg without being stilty.

    Pound for pound, she was the deadliest working machine of all the twenty field trial champions I have made up, covering a period of thirtythree years. At this time, I had a team of seven trial spaniels, all requiring shooting experience, so the amount of game I shot for her was limited.

    It didn't matter. She had such inbuilt quality that she could handle any trial situation without vast amounts of game being shot for her beforehand. In her first season, she only had eighteen head of game shot over her before she gained her title, and that includes game shot in the actual events. She won four open stakes that season and ran an exceptional Championship, but things seemed a bit political that year and she only won a diploma.

    For the next three seasons I eased up on her in competition as I had another very good young bitch I was wanting to bring on, but in her second season I won the Cocker Championship at Blenhiem for Will Sloan. She came into my ownership at the end of that season.
    Speckle of Ardoon
    Keen in retirement
    F.T. Ch Speckle of Ardoon at 12 years of age.

    Altogether she won three Championships in succession, the only spaniel of any breed to do so, and the record remains to this day. She won the title of nine open stakes and won the Game Fair tests against springers when the test was an individual challenge and not an international team event.

    Like 'Sele,' ( F.T. Ch. Dinas Dewi Sele) she never bred anything in her own class but her sons and daughters have had a tremendous influence on the breed. She retired from competition at four and a half but lived to be fourteen and four months. She was brilliant, dauntless and dangerous to know.
    Last edited by el borracho; 30-10-2012 at 06:54 PM.
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  11. #11
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    who here uses a show dog line to hunt
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  12. #12
    Member Ruff's Avatar
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    You can always find an exception to prove a non existent rule... Speckle was a freak but what else was ever produced from the same show lines? nothing...

    Mortenson was right, as he usually was, but he only used working lines himself. I believe the same things, pedigree are more likely to tell me what I don;t want than what i do. When I look over a pedigree I am more concerned with red flags than any super dogs. Leon also believed anything beyond grandparents really had bugger all influence unless it was prominent on both sides of the pedigree.

    My experiences is that the main quality lost in using non working lines or show lines is biddibility... many of the show lines still hunt, but can be real buggers to train because no one has really selected proper hunting temperament in a while. Just my five cents worth....

    Oh and the division is least most pronounced in versatiles, then labs then setters and pointers and finally is a huge freaking divide in spaniels.

  13. #13
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruff View Post
    You can always find an exception to prove a non existent rule... Speckle was a freak but what else was ever produced from the same show lines? nothing...

    Mortenson was right, as he usually was, but he only used working lines himself. I believe the same things, pedigree are more likely to tell me what I don;t want than what i do. When I look over a pedigree I am more concerned with red flags than any super dogs. Leon also believed anything beyond grandparents really had bugger all influence unless it was prominent on both sides of the pedigree.

    My experiences is that the main quality lost in using non working lines or show lines is biddibility... many of the show lines still hunt, but can be real buggers to train because no one has really selected proper hunting temperament in a while. Just my five cents worth....

    Oh and the division is least most pronounced in versatiles, then labs then setters and pointers and finally is a huge freaking divide in spaniels.
    some very interesting observations Ruff particularly about bidability and one I can imagine to be true given the working breeder recognizes these traits hopefully and breeds toward a trait like that .

    I agree even the show dog can hunt but if the finer traits haven't been breed for it would be hit and miss to if you would get a workable aniimal to hunt over .
    I am a doubting Thomas with many people that tell me of the wonders there dog can do without first seeing that dog work as I know they are not wind up toys and need input to create manners even if birdy as a birdy dog can also piss off for the day and self hunt,

    Does a show dog put the possibility of closer working into a line or just create a dog that hangs around your feet and ruin your day when a working line is running long and holding point and birds???
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

  14. #14
    Member Ruff's Avatar
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    I would doubt it but haven;t worked with a wide enough cross section of both lines to be definitive.

    I can ask Whitehead if you like?

  15. #15
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    Ruff are you a Pointer and Setter man or a Spaniel man? I chatted with Bob about his electric little cockers-great dogs!
    Tweed or not to Tweed that is the question

 

 

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