Lead in .410 vs steel in 20

What are peoples thoughts on the .410 now that it can shoot lead and the 20 is limited to steel, does this make them comparable or is the 20 still the better option. Especially if you are thinking for introducing kids so even in 20 I don’t think we would be using 3inch shells.

I have never shot ether and I am curious, I have a young boy coming up and am starting to think about a shoty for him, he is coming up 12 but is a small kid, the pond he would be shooting next year (not this season he has to do another year sitting yet) is a perfect beginner pond impossible for a shot to be more than 30yards due to trees and the birds are flying pretty much straight at you.

Cheers

A pellet from a 410 is as effective energy wise as one from any other gauge.
The pellet count is with no 4s approx 140 per oz the 410 will have between 1/2 and 3/4 oz in the Shell, the 20 gauge 1 1/4 typically so the pattern will be twice as dense. 410 guns are light and suited to small frame persons but put magnum loads through them and it defeats the purpose.
The 20 may be the only shotgun he ever needs, whereas the 410s limits will sooner or later be realised.
At the range limit you say either would be suitable in my opinion

While I do like the little pump action 410 I got for the missus to shoot years ago, I should have got the benelli 20g i had lined up for her instead. It had more recoil than she liked but reckon she would've got used to it real quick
Or maybe a gas auto instead.
Bugger all around back mid 90s.
It couldnt be too heavy or recoil too much so a 410 it was and because of the lack of lead down range, tried to compensate with a couple of extra rounds capacity.
Ammo is dear as poison for the 410 as well.
Go for a 20g and find some light trap ammo to start with

the wee 410 is a great weapon IF USED WITHIN its capabilities...... and you are prepared to pattern loads ....every single .410 I have used (and that has been a few) are fussy huas and love what they love and hate what they dont.... 3/4 oz of #4s kill well it is in effect half a magnum .12ga load.....BUT 25 yards is a realistic safe limit. we have killed every gamebird from quail to canada geese using the wee gun....
I WONT own a .20ga as use .12ga and a mix up of shells can be fatal.
have mate who uses .20ga on rabbits with great results...but he went back to .12ga as ammunition prices and availability are better.
if you are going to use either 20ga or 12ga for learner you NEED to find lightest loads you can find.
a .410 with full choke is a beautiful thing for finishing off birds on water that are wounded....so much so I would rate it above .12ga with steel...and it sure makes less mess under 20 yards.
reloading .410 is where it really shines,as is dirt cheap to feed and dead simple to load.
or just feed it 3/4oz or 11/16th oz loads in shot size it patterns well with. a boy wont go through a heap of ammunition using a single shot...so price is not going to be that much of an issue. if you find they ARE using lots...they pay for it out of pocket money....its amazing how that curbs barrel stretching LOL.

light 20ga is a great upland gun but a 12ga is more cost effective to shoot.
20ga steel if you can find it is OK, did I just say that :D
If he is 12 consider a light 12ga (stock cut to fit and shorter barrels) if he can manage it OK and find some 24gm trap loads (yes steel) if 25 to 30 yards is you max range they should work OK
Other than that .410 will be fine for what you want at those ranges

what we did with .12ga single bakail was fill the cavity of buttstock with leadshot..... the hole is big enough to fit half a pound.....which really soaks up any recoil and because its against shoulder it doesnt effect gun weight between hands...makes it heavier to carry for sure...I had 11 oz in my H&R pump and everyone who used it commented on how soft it was to shoot.
most single guns have similar hole in butt,it contains the main screw to hold it together....
whatever you do...DO NOT buy light gun and stoke it up with magnum loads.....

Thanks for the input, so it sounds like pretty much any thing should work, I have a short 12g pump he could use with some light steel trap loads but it seams way to big for him, I guess I will wait hopefully he has a growth spurt in the next year or so

if you are selective with loads,and realistic about range...a stick jammed in mud,anything closer than that is "go for it lad" he should do fine.my young fella had "job" of shooting woundies....and excelled at it with full choke .410 and my reloads...next season he was using .12ga with 1oz steel reloads..following year 30 grn gamebore loads....

Absolutely no comparison whatsoever, the 20ga with steel will work fine and will out perform .410 in every way.

20ga steel oz load... .12ga steel oz load...yip pretty much the same thing.
your wee .410 is good inside its limits and not so good outside them...sticking to the limits is the key.

My older boy (10) shot last season with the same single shot 410 I started shooting with and will do so again this season he has even been taking Canada geese with it
He opted to use my full size U/O 410 for a parry/goose shoot and had no trouble keeping up with the 12ga guns on the parry’s using #4 shot

Dont bother with 20g, a light 12g shooting light oz loads will do the same and cheaper all day long.
Personally I only shoot .410 since the introduction of steel shot. Not only is it more sportingly, It's a gem of a cartridge with the same knock down of it's big brothers only less lead in the air. I run 3/4oz 3" #5 loads and it drops everything. The smaller patern just means you have to shoot better, for this reason I have always said..410 is not a beginners gun, its a professionals gun.
If you are into reloading it then you can really stretch its legs with toungsten loads. The yanks are shooting canadian geese with them at 70 yards!
I know what my boy will be shooting when hes old enough and if he find the interest. 36 gauge for the win!

as far as the 410 goes i,ve shot it very little but the 20 gauge i shot everything from quail to 15 pound canadas and bigger feral geese.
the 36 gram 20 gauge loads in lead are unneccersarily heavy at both ends.
decoying geese were easily handled by 30 gram gamebore 3,s backed up by fiocchi 32 gram 2,s for the flarers.
pass shooting geese fiocchi 32 gram 2,s all day long
ducks parries gamebore 4,s or 5,s
quail over my gsps winchester AA 9,s
The steel i tried was federal 3 inch 2,s and both GEESE died within 30 metres of bieng shot
still considering the angle and closeness of the hits i wasnt impressed and after years of the spoiling sight of lighter kicking and less expencive leads loads killing instantly i hoped for better.
i prayed for better steel loads to follow like 12 steel but.......

reading that...I can see I have used .12ga to do same,with similar payload weights.....I really rate the 30-32grm steel from .12ga....if you can find it the winchester xpert in 2 3/4 " 1 1/16th oz it is a very very very good load for mallards to canadas...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

reading that...I can see I have used .12ga to do same,with similar payload weights.....I really rate the 30-32grm steel from .12ga....if you can find it the winchester xpert in 2 3/4 " 1 1/16th oz it is a very very very good load for mallards to canadas...

---

mate of mine made the 2 3/4 inch 12 gauge 30 gram gamebore steel loads sing.
in 3,s for ducks and 2,s geese he literally slayed them no muss no fuss

Just wish Bismith was not so expensive.

i hear that
id still have the 20 if boss plated bismuth or even heavy bismuth was avaliable and wasnt dearer than petrol.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mikee

light 20ga is a great upland gun but a 12ga is more cost effective to shoot.
20ga steel if you can find it is OK, did I just say that :D
If he is 12 consider a light 12ga (stock cut to fit and shorter barrels) if he can manage it OK and find some 24gm trap loads (yes steel) if 25 to 30 yards is you max range they should work OK
Other than that .410 will be fine for what you want at those ranges

---

20g Benelli with patternmaster choke and lead will beat ALL the high priced other weaponry hands down. Sad a pleasure in life is being rolled away.

Looking around last night online it looks like getting normal 12g steel loads is going to be difficult this year let alone 20g or light specialist loads

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rusl

Looking around last night online it looks like getting normal 12g steel loads is going to be difficult this year let alone 20g or light specialist loads

---

If it arrives at all then it will be just before shooting season starts. The Mary Arms 20ga Steel (mixed size shot) @ $30 for pkt 25, worked really well for me. It is 3 inch so in a very light 20ga it boots a bit. I buy what I can when I find it.

Have 8 packets of Mary Arms 20 gauge 3" steel if anyone is in need. Used it in 20g 11/87, wasn't too much for young fella, he's gone to 12g.

I started out with a Rossi single shot .410 and loved it. Light gun but still very little kick. Then graduated to the same gun in 20 gauge, it kicked pretty bad and the thicker pistol grip and stock didn't help as it made me punch my nose when I wrapped my hand over the stock. Was made like that as the frame had to be bigger for the bigger guage.

If you don't reload ammo for either option is going to be expensive, at least .410 lead is going to be easier to find. If he can handle it a light gas semi-auto 12 gauge is not a silly option. There's plenty of light steel loads available and no need to upgrade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Got-ya

Just wish Bismith was not so expensive.

---

You can buy for 55 a kg then reload it. If your reloading. I managed to pick up abput 3kg in a auction thrown in which I was stoked with. If the ammo. Is going to be hard to get ill shoot a sxs and be picky with my shots. I tested some reloads out in pigeons at around 40m with good results. Not a cheap way of doing it though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tetawa

Have 8 packets of Mary Arms 20 gauge 3" steel if anyone is in need. Used it in 20g 11/87, wasn't too much for young fella, he's gone to 12g.

---

Sold.

The 20 gauge with steel will beat the .410 hands down.
My son has shot his 20 gauge since he was about 9 and he is now 15. I keep thinking I should get him a 12 gauge but this season gone with steel he shot the best he ever has. I think the extra velocity over lead meant he didn't make the error of not leading the birds enough.
The steel I got patterned really well out at 40 yards also and as most of our shooting is under 30 yards he hardly missed a duck.
However if he is 12 years old I would almost be thinking of skipping the 20 gauge and going straight for a 12.
Falcon make a 30g load and also if the longest shots are 30 yards as you said falcon also bring out a couple of different steel clay target rounds, 1 comes out in 6s but even if you couldn't get ahold of them and could only get the 7s I'm picking they would smoke ducks out to 25 and be nice and mild to shoot.
Just a thought.

the steel clay loads are HOPELESS... as the velocity is too slow....if they were at normal steel speed,sure they would be awesome...but at 11-1200fps they are pitiful...I bought a box to try finish off woundies... epic fail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the steel clay loads are HOPELESS... as the velocity is too slow....if they were at normal steel speed,sure they would be awesome...but at 11-1200fps they are pitiful...I bought a box to try finish off woundies... epic fail.

---

no good for even on a night pond mickey???

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the steel clay loads are HOPELESS... as the velocity is too slow....if they were at normal steel speed,sure they would be awesome...but at 11-1200fps they are pitiful...I bought a box to try finish off woundies... epic fail.

---

Totally agree with this statement. Steel relies on speed to kill, no speed equates to no penetration and lots of wounded birds.
A .410 with 11/16 lead loads may have less of a pay load but just watch how well they penertrate and kill cleanly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

the steel clay loads are HOPELESS... as the velocity is too slow....if they were at normal steel speed,sure they would be awesome...but at 11-1200fps they are pitiful...I bought a box to try finish off woundies... epic fail.

---

What ones did you get?
I'm sure I saw a write up somewhere where someone used the falcon claybird steel rounds and shot geese and everything with them.
28grams of steel 6s going at 1250 fps under 25 yards surely would kill a duck. Might have to try track down some to test.

so if you apply the old rule of two shot sizes IN REVERSE ..... you asking 28grms of #8s to kill birds...yeah sure if everything is in your favour...NO WAY will you break bones....
the difference between an oz load of #6-7-8s and a 1 1/4oz of #4s back in the lead only days was huge...less wounded birds with #4s


I find steel #-2s or #3s work much much better for us than #4s.....and yes we have tried a few different #4s

the thing with .410 is you HAVE to realise its limited payload and stick to under 30 yards...under 20 is better still...I recall thinking I was some kind of Davey Crocket x dead eye dick when shot a hare at 30 paces......it was 20 paces more than my usual shots on rabbits,often would get into less than 10....I used the wee .410 to good effect by getting in close.

I reloaded for our son and used mixture of shot sizes #3-4-5-6-8 all in together,the difference between a 3/4oz load and 1/2oz load is huge....and many folks buy the 2 1/2" shells and wonder why they struggle to kill birds,there is simply sweet fcuk all pellets to do anything,some loads RIO for one are LESS than half n oz...totally completely hopeless for anything....

the box of steel clay loads were by gamebore and I THINK were #8
I used 8 of them rapid fire through defender at possum up pine tree who was keeping us awake in camp...just cause I could...in morning instead of a dead possum hanging from branches there was a blind possum very much alive (I felt like shit) it was soon dispatched with .410
and the .410 is deadly on possums in trees,full choke load of #4s and they die very nicely indeed.

as for writeups of folks killing geese with steel clay loads....I remember reading article where fella shot zebra with a 17/06!!!!!!! one has to feel sorry for zebra.

if ducks are facing you wings out neck stretched,they arent hard to kill,1/2 second later they flared away after burners lit and tail on to you....definately a lot harder to kill cleanly then. you gots to break bones.....

hehe i remember someguy saying the 410 was ok on geese you just lead the head like a quail :O_O::D
if your that good a slingshot would do you im not,
but i did use trap 7,s on night ponds to good effect on ducks .
with a great dog if i was less than bang on.
i just figured at those failing light ranges steel trap loads speed wouldnt be such a factor.
given most of the ones ive seen in both gauges[20/12] were a ounce of steel 5,s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gsp follower

hehe i remember someguy saying the 410 was ok on geese you just lead the head like a quail :O_O::D
if your that good a slingshot would do you im not,
but i did use trap 7,s on night ponds to good effect on ducks .
with a great dog if i was less than bang on.
i just figured at those failing light ranges steel trap loads speed wouldnt be such a factor.
given most of the ones ive seen in both gauges[20/12] were a ounce of steel 5,s

---

i speak as one who leads quail like they are quail and reguly miss,s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gsp follower

hehe i remember someguy saying the 410 was ok on geese you just lead the head like a quail :O_O::D
if your that good a slingshot would do you im not,
but i did use trap 7,s on night ponds to good effect on ducks .
with a great dog if i was less than bang on.
i just figured at those failing light ranges steel trap loads speed wouldnt be such a factor.
given most of the ones ive seen in both gauges[20/12] were a ounce of steel 5,s

---

an once of steel #5s is different kettle of fish to steel #7-8s for same reasons as with lead..... but if going to once of steel #5s you may as well have velocity on your side......I like #2s for everything even up close,I do not get many pellets in flesh,they have gone right through and exited.unless its silly close you dont get any more damage than with smaller shot,arguably less holes of bigger size.
2 seasons ago I reflex shot a mallard hen taking off from under my feet at about 5 yards....and still ate her....didnt need knife n fork to pull that one apart LOL.
wad was inside body!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micky Duck

an once of steel #5s is different kettle of fish to steel #7-8s for same reasons as with lead..... but if going to once of steel #5s you may as well have velocity on your side......I like #2s for everything even up close,I do not get many pellets in flesh,they have gone right through and exited.unless its silly close you dont get any more damage than with smaller shot,arguably less holes of bigger size.
2 seasons ago I reflex shot a mallard hen taking off from under my feet at about 5 yards....and still ate her....didnt need knife n fork to pull that one apart LOL.
wad was inside body!!!

---

wad shot a goose once poor bastard didnt know what hit it.