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Thread: Cahill? and media up to shenannigans again- God forbid they actually try the truth.

  1. #121
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    People who think that we need to 'compromise' or 'give a little to appease them' are naive.

    Their end goal is the complete removal of firearms from civilian possession and the eradication of any gun culture.

    You giving in to their 'compromise ' is just surrendering to their demands, one law at a time.

    Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
    Ryan, Banana, Nickoli and 4 others like this.

  2. #122
    Member A330driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidney View Post
    No... explain why it should..
    Not saying it should at all... it was more of a question.

    Iím not trying to argue with you here,I see Gun registration,Gun owner registration and the plethora of other issues weíve discussed here as the whole ball of wax in trying to remedy or put forth solutions to this issue.My mind can be changed,hopefully yours.You say I havenít given you proof that Gun registration works... I would counter that you havenít given the same,with regards to combining what you and others have suggested and see if it has some meat.Im not predicating my view on just the issue Gun registration issue,itís based on a combination of all we have debated,suggested and put forth.
    It's not the mountain we conquer,but ourselves.....Sir Edmund Hillary

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsp follower View Post
    paranoic nra type bullshit everything you buy to hunt with is taxed already.
    the isolated mad gunman dont apply here because in the case of stanley graham and aramoana they could have been stopped.'
    our main problem is legal guns getting in to illegal hands via dodgy or'' intimadated collectors, importers''or lax and sometimes not owners.
    as a cop once told me thieves given enought time and the right gear will get into anything.
    solution strong sentence add on for illegal possesion more for criminal use.
    at least rego gives the cops a idea of whats been taken if you,ve been honest and a central system to help track them .



    they already do and have h&f guncity call it markup your government call it gst and import duty.
    I agreed with you right up until the underlined section. Each owner should keep the details and serial numbers of their firearms in a secure place for this very reason. My list is secure as it can be. It is unhackable because you cannot access hard copy with a computer. It is updated or checked regularly (not that it changes much due to budgetary constraints....) But it goes further than that. It has teh serial and model numbers of ALL my expensive items, not just firearms, my TVs, DVD players, motorcycle, power tools, etc and a comprehensive list and value of items that are there -(think reloading gear, ammo, boots backpacks tents, etc.) If there is a fire or theft I have a check list of the items I need to look for. Its smart to do this, not jst for fireamrs etc but for all high value items that could be stolen or damaged.
    gsp follower and Sideshow like this.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by A330driver View Post
    Quote gonetropo.....Ēthe registry will bite us all in the bumĒ.
    it will start out as "tell us what you own", in a year they will start with a cost per gun to register it, this will then be increased . then it will be transfer fees everytime you buy and sell until they price ownership out of the market.
    give the bastards an inch and they will take a mile.
    And mate,that is almost certain to be true.Where does accountability start and stop,Iím not sure that they wonít do this anyway,irregardless of the situation,they (the Govt) at this stage is close to any knee-Jerk reaction whether it works or not.They will almost do anything to satisfy the publicís desire to rid most/all guns frim private hands.The good guys,(you and I )will play by the rules(maybe) the bad bassturds,well that will be business as usual.

    We have to start somewhere,there has to be a middle road with the existing laws and existing situations,that donít fuck the gun owner,the Govt and puts trust back into the public about who owns and has guns......pixie fairies at the bottom of the garden,sure...Iíve seen em,

    The yanks have tried control,Mexicans,Canadians many others,the differences,are they surrounded by various influences ie borders which are hard to control,good old Kiwi,water,so the mission should be easier.Like you mate,my attitude is fuck em,but are we actually fucking ourselves.A police state regarding gun ownership is what we need to avoid,we have to somehow find ground common to all.The argument that we need to be registered chaps my arse as well,if Iíve got nothing to hide why should it matter,.......it matters because we now live in an environment where criminal gun use is at an all time high,

    Do yourself a favour and listen to the arguments the yanks have over the/there 2nd amendment,concerning the ďeraĒ in which it was written and itís application into todayís environment.....priceless.....if you donít think thatís a mind-fuck,then you will actually believe in pixie fairies[/QUOTE]

    Mate.... you are buying the bullshit hook line and sinker....
    If the police were capable of doing their current job, and were resourced appropriately, they would have followed up on the likes of Quinn, Winders, Gray etc - this is their failing not ours. Don't get me started on burglary resolution rates or the piss poor penalties for firearms crime...
    Where is the problem? The media beat up every single episode - but make no mention of actual facts: their information comes from the Police Union.... who have no idea (as admitted with Cahill himself contradicting every fact presented....) Encounters by police are inconsistent: a soft air pistol in the backseat... or someone returning from a hunt who us pulled over is probably counted as "an encounter" - we don't know because the Police have proven both inefficient and incompetent at collating and maintaining records.
    Remind me again how registration helps solve a crime - especially if serial numbers have been filed off... and criminals are by definition not law abiding to start with...?
    Media accountability would make a difference, reporting facts, not speculation can make a difference to perception, BALANCE would go even further...

    It is telling that the Select Committee had a very narrow Terms of Reference - specific to stopping criminals attaining firearms.... yet the recommendations (all 20 of them...) did not mention criminals once....

    The Police knowledge of the Arms Act is abysmal - yet you advocate giving in to the POLICE ASSOCIATION demands?

    No disrespect; but you are completely naive....

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsp follower View Post
    in isolation like us where no gun running occurs hopefuly registration could help.
    provided all licenced owners get out of the gungrabber headspace.
    it will at least keep track of al new firearms legally sold at shop level and you,d hope private law abiding level.
    anything we have to do to help,even tho i agree we aint the fuckin main problem, should be grasped with both hands and touted far and wide for the collective memory.
    as long as the bastard polys and or cops dont try to make it a revenue gather, then why not.
    it might make the cops a little less jumpy around owners if they have at least some idea of what you have.

    [QUOTEI have a question that nobody has yet answered, ever. What problem will be solved with any registration system that cannot be relied on? - because none of the possibilities can be. ]
    better to be in the room than outside getting decisions forced on you.
    there is no perfect plan but doing nothing isnt a option if the pollies get a burr in their arses.[/QUOTE]

    This response for @A330driver as well.... Australia has had another gun amnesty.... and achieved a greater number of firearms turned in than expected.... I seem to recall estimates of 260,000 unregistered firearms in Australia.... they have registration - and are very anti-gun, but their system has not worked if the number of unregistered guns has increased. They are also surrounded by water - just a casual observation..
    Our borders are incredibly porous - we have a massive coastline, and an ongoing problem with imported drugs - and precursors....yet there is a 100% ban on these - again; please remind me how registration helps?
    timattalon likes this.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by A330driver View Post
    Not saying it should at all... it was more of a question.

    Iím not trying to argue with you here,I see Gun registration,Gun owner registration and the plethora of other issues weíve discussed here as the whole ball of wax in trying to remedy or put forth solutions to this issue.My mind can be changed,hopefully yours.You say I havenít given you proof that Gun registration works... I would counter that you havenít given the same,with regards to combining what you and others have suggested and see if it has some meat.Im not predicating my view on just the issue Gun registration issue,itís based on a combination of all we have debated,suggested and put forth.
    My mind can be changed on the basis on sound logical justification. But not only have I never seen one that exists for gun registration as a genuine means to prevent crime, I will never see one that actually stands scrutiny on that basis. Plenty of other reasons for gun registration, none of which are in our interests as pointed out by others. Traceability after the fact, is of little consequence to the solving of crime, it can help but seldom is the only means by which crime is solved. To argue deterence because of registration is ludicrous.

    I have a perspective based upon policing through the period of manual firearms registration, to the Whanganui Computerised system, to the introduction of FAL's focussing on people. I have a further perspective on compliance formed through legal training. I also have some basic competance in information technology.... so probably I am well qualified to offer opinion on whether systems of registration are worthwhile or not.

    From a law enforcement perspective its a very different thing than for a private FAL holder. But even from a Law enforcement perspective, they are fooling themselves if they believe the benefits will exceed the cost of creation of running the system. Everything suggested on here in terms of registration and/or monitoring would be astronomical in terms of cost. And the fact of the matter is, the officer turning up to a house to a domestic disturbance, will still not be able to rely on any information provided by a system regarding firearms.

    Registration will always be seen as a form of control to be exercised on scarey people with guns, by idiots whose perceptions are more real than reality is. We are vulnerable to idiots who can make decisions that are more designed to fuel perceptions than to deal with reality. The last thing we need is to feed the idiots with stupid ideas. One could expect that people that have interests in the legal ownership and use of firearms would be less likely to be confused by these sorts of issues, and not persist in trying to shoot themselves in the foot.
    Last edited by Sidney; 16-10-2017 at 06:24 PM.
    mikee and timattalon like this.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsp follower View Post
    at least rego gives the cops a idea of whats been taken if you,ve been honest and a central system to help track them .

    ...so does keeping your own list of serial numbers for insurance purposes - registration does not work, and targets the wrong group of society.... just my humble opinion....
    mikee and gsp follower like this.

  8. #128
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    No disrespect taken,your points are valid and taken.....having a difference of opinion is not naive.....this discussion will open eyes and change minds.Sydney,s last post certainly opened the floodgates as to his actual “personal”experience in this arena,as with your posts and his,it made for good reading
    It's not the mountain we conquer,but ourselves.....Sir Edmund Hillary

  9. #129
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    Look at Australia as an example of why we can't compromise. What a sad cluster fuck that has turned into for everybody involved in shooting sports.
    A330driver likes this.

  10. #130
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    the idea that taxing something up and up and up to stop it has been bounced around before and is actually currently in place here in NZ. .... anyone bought packet of smokes lately??? $20 for pack of cheap taylor mades and $70 ish for rollies

    now when the govt gets serious about stopping people smoking by making it cost say $5 per taylor made and rolly equally priced it MIGHT stop a fewbut people with the $$$$ die of lung cancer just the same as them that dont.

    if price goes that high the black market will be even more active than it is now,it might stop foriegners from coming to visit or work (most of the Irish guys we work with smoke like chimneys)

  11. #131
    Member Micky Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nickoli View Post
    ...so does keeping your own list of serial numbers for insurance purposes - registration does not work, and targets the wrong group of society.... just my humble opinion....
    the concept of swipe card for transations would make it plurry near impossible to sell anything dodgy to anyone who was legit themselves and if perchance you were dumb enough to try it through proper channels the "system" should red flag it straight away
    and before you say people arent that dumb......guys in Timaru took a taxi to do a burg and got driver to wait!!!!!!!!

  12. #132
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    there are those who say gun registration wont work/does not work and those who say gun registration can work
    well I think it has the potential to work but you need the man power to create and effectively enforce a system to work. We just don't have the resources/manpower to do that
    "The only real power comes out of a long rifle"

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sidney View Post
    My mind can be changed on the basis on sound logical justification. But not only have I never seen one that exists for gun registration as a genuine means to prevent crime, I will never see one that actually stands scrutiny on that basis. Plenty of other reasons for gun registration, none of which are in our interests as pointed out by others. Traceability after the fact, is of little consequence to the solving of crime, it can help but seldom is the only means by which crime is solved. To argue deterence because of registration is ludicrous.

    I have a perspective based upon policing through the period of manual firearms registration, to the Whanganui Computerised system, to the introduction of FAL's focussing on people. I have a further perspective on compliance formed through legal training. I also have some basic competance in information technology.... so probably I am well qualified to offer opinion on whether systems of registration are worthwhile or not.

    From a law enforcement perspective its a very different thing than for a private FAL holder. But even from a Law enforcement perspective, they are fooling themselves if they believe the benefits will exceed the cost of creation of running the system. Everything suggested on here in terms of registration and/or monitoring would be astronomical in terms of cost. And the fact of the matter is, the officer turning up to a house to a domestic disturbance, will still not be able to rely on any information provided by a system regarding firearms.

    Registration will always be seen as a form of control to be exercised on scarey people with guns, by idiots whose perceptions are more real than reality is. We are vulnerable to idiots who can make decisions that are more designed to fuel perceptions than to deal with reality. The last thing we need is to feed the idiots with stupid ideas. One could expect that people that have interests in the legal ownership and use of firearms would be less likely to be confused by these sorts of issues, and not persist in trying to shoot themselves in the foot.
    As much as I have disagreed with some of your other posts on other topics, I believe this one hits the nail squarely on the head.
    Sideshow likes this.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paddy79 View Post
    there are those who say gun registration wont work/does not work and those who say gun registration can work
    well I think it has the potential to work but you need the man power to create and effectively enforce a system to work. We just don't have the resources/manpower to do that
    Or the money..If it was to cost us on a per head basis what it cost the Canadians before they gave up it would be in the vicinity of $225m. Where in the budget can they find that sort of money? More importantly ; who will the take it from? Health? Wlefare? Police? Road safety? Corrections? No one will give up their budget willingly ad the service will drop in places where it is desperately needed.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by timattalon View Post
    As much as I have disagreed with some of your other posts on other topics, I believe this one hits the nail squarely on the head.

    Well mate,I’m in agreement with you there.When keeping to the subject matter at hand,this debate has produced,a lot of thought.Those Participating,contributing,debating the issue,will hopefully walk away with a better understanding of the subject,I have.For those sitting on the fence,hopefully it has swayed their opinions or standing on the issue.For those of us on this forum,gun owners,sellers etc,we are all affected by this,debating it,and getting accurate and good info can only be a good thing.

    It is obvious we have people here,in positions,when they tell you,who are in very qualified positions,to make qualified statements and observations.That,I reckon,we can all appreciate.One thing is for sure,opinions and positions can be swayed by healthy debate,especially in this subject matter,as seen in several posts,it cuts to the bone.In the end we are better for it.
    timattalon and Micky Duck like this.
    It's not the mountain we conquer,but ourselves.....Sir Edmund Hillary

 

 

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