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Thread: questions about 1080

  1. #1
    Member stumpy's Avatar
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    questions about 1080

    so I don't want this thread to turn ugly , but I have some questions and would like some theories on what to do instead ... so I don't know anything about 1080 , apart from what I see on tv , I see on this forum that other animals die as well as the pests .... what are the other effective options to eradicate pests from our land ? shooting ? trapping? .... the man on tv on the news said that some native will die , but if they do nothing all the native will die ..... whats the answer? is there one ? I know some /most people are against 1080 ... but what else will work ? .... I really want to know as I love this country and don't want to see out native animals dieing out from introduced pests .... this is a serious question , and I look forward to learning , but am not interested in ranting ...
    cheers stumpy
    NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT HURTS, HOW DARK IT GETS OR HOW FAR YOU FALL , .....
    YOU ARE NEVER OUT OF THE FIGHT . (Marcus Luttrell)

  2. #2
    Member Spook's Avatar
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    Well, you wont have to worry about the native animals dying out as we don't have any...apart from the bats of course.
    Which is worse, ignorance or apathy...I don't know and don't care.

  3. #3
    sturg4
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    60 years of 1080 has got us to this point.

    There are plenty of alternatives and we will use them when our country finally wakes up.
    outdoorlad, Gibo, madmaori and 1 others like this.

  4. #4
    Member EeeBees's Avatar
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    So what are those alternatives? other than trapping etc...cynanide was extremely effective in parts...
    ...amitie, respect mutuel et amour...

    ...le beau et le bon, cela rime avec Breton!...

  5. #5
    sturg4
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeeBees View Post
    So what are those alternatives? other than trapping etc...cynanide was extremely effective in parts...
    These are big questions that will take a long time to answer.

    You know what this reminds me of? The last couple of years of DDT use in New Zealand. Farmers and Government Agencies poured it on to properties and said they couldn't farm without it, if the were not allowed to use it they would have to walk off their properties or they would become uneconomic.

    A lot of damage was done in those last few years when they poured it on like there was no tomorrow, some of that land cannot be farmed to this day. The farmers woke up one morning and DDT was a thing of the past and there wasn't a whimper.

    If we woke up tomorrow and 1080 was a thing of the past and we could utilize the war chest of dollars, around $300mil that is spent on
    1080 this year. There will be some very useful schemes that will develop.

    I have seen and taken part in some great pest control projects that ran well, were cost effective and employed good people that we trained. But mostly we woke up on a distant foggy morning and found that the money had been taken out of our meagre budget for another 1080 drop so we folded our traps and went home and the people we trained went on the dole.
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  6. #6
    sturg4
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    Quote Originally Posted by EeeBees View Post
    So what are those alternatives? other than trapping etc...cynanide was extremely effective in parts...
    The Te Urewera Mainland Island Projects are worth a study.....Eee Bees

  7. #7
    Member stumpy's Avatar
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    ok , so thanks for your answers scribe , so is trapping an effective way of eradicating all the pests , ? you mention there are other ways , but what exactly? im not trying to be confrontational , but as a normal civvie , trying to understand about 1080, is it better for "the greater good" or is it only poison that will destroy all ? is 1080 effective ? ..... I only ask on this forum as I know I will get some good answers from you guys that have been around the traps for awhile .
    cheers
    NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT HURTS, HOW DARK IT GETS OR HOW FAR YOU FALL , .....
    YOU ARE NEVER OUT OF THE FIGHT . (Marcus Luttrell)

  8. #8
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    Trapping is and always has been an effective way of keeping possum numbers down. Cost wise nowadays it is not economical as opposed to aerial bombardment. Trapping by individuals is solely reliant on what income stream is gained from it. Sometimes it is lucrative, and other times not so. If every man and his dog were trapping the fur prices would drop, the skins would once again be plentiful and the economics would see them all sitting home in front of the fire. If a government department does it, they would need a whole new infrastructure in place, upper hierarchy, middle hierarchy, lower hierarchy and then the field workers, huts, tracks, helicopters...it is easier for them to farm the job out to private contractors, as they do now and just clean up the easy spots and bush edges. Once they found out that possums were not necessarily the carriers of bovine TB, it all went in the too hard basket.
    I believe what keeps the possum numbers down is heavy rain, the little bastards cant handle real heavy rain...they get washed from their nests and die from the sheer volume and the pneumonia it causes...if they bombed the bush with paper tissues covered in snot it would have a more devastating effect on their numbers than anything else.
    It is years since anyone said that the possum numbers are increasing...someone years ago came up with the number of 70,000,000 of them and that number has stayed the same...they eat less than 1% of the daily forest growth, so are they really a pest?
    If anyone was wanting to eradicate them, they are dreaming...if anyone wanted their numbers reduced, then find a market that will take them...prove to the powers-that-be that it will remove them from the way-in-the-back country and they may listen, but I doubt it as the 1080 bombing business is a great money sucking machine.
    Which is worse, ignorance or apathy...I don't know and don't care.

  9. #9
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    Stumpy, I am not going to get into the "is 1080 the best/only option" debate, it is way too emotive a subject, and folks are pretty set in their ways.

    What I will say though is that you need to look at how prevention programs are managed. How easy is it to administer and measure ?

    Now with aerial spread, you simply measure how much poison goes out per hectare, of course assuming a known lethal dose. If you want to make it nice and scientific, you would do samples of population before and after, and monitor side effects and "by-catch" etc. Easy peasy.

    For trapping, the big problem has always been two fold:

    1) terrain : much easier to fly over with a heli and drop the green rain every 3 or 5 years than getting some guy to slog up and down bluffs, lugging traps and living out in the bush for weeks or months.
    2) human nature : if trappers are too successful, they do themselves out of a job, so it is just human nature that people would try to protect their industry and income. Unless people are paid a premium to go trap the really rough, nasty areas, they will stick to where the easy money is. You'd need to look at paying them to keep numbers below an agreed level, rather than per animal caught...

    To solve the 2 issues above would take enormous effort in man power, management and monitoring. That's why it gets filed in the "too hard" basket.

    That's my 3 Zim cents anyway
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  10. #10
    sturg4
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    Yes trapping is an effective way of controlling pests. There are many effective trapping programs in the Coromandel and elsewhere in the country that survive on volunteer labour and donations. One program where I have had a lot to do with we ran a mixture of DOC 200 traps Leg hold traps and Nooski rat traps. It was effective, the traps were emptied and reset every month.

    But just when the result were becoming obvious with the return of the birds. DOC, Waikato Regional Council would come along and 1080 the block. Even though this was private land you cannot stop them. Many blocks of land are the same all over the Country.

    It is bloody demoralizing for the trappers involved.

    When a block is continually trapped you can keep the pests at a real low level. Where as with the current regime of 1080 drops its more like farming them. Most 1080 treatment areas hold between 2 and 5 time greater rat populations than outside the treatment areas.

    Also the possum number in 1080 treated areas are always higher than the Government Agencies claim. I spent years doing the pre and post monitoring for DOC, Landcare. Landcare Research proved with trials that a percentage of pests are un-trappable and un-poisonable therefore the claims made for 1080 effectiveness were grossly over claimed.

    So within the three year period the area becomes re inhabited. Good job if you can get it, for some. Those firms that have the resource consents to use 1080 have grown into financial empires.

    The stoat, one of the real pests of our forest, is little effected by 1080 as he catches live prey. Preferred prey is rats. In the initial knockdown period of the rat population, after a drop' the stoat quickly switches to the bird population to survive. So the bird population takes a hit from the 1080 and another from the stoat population and if that is not enough the rat population replaces itself and usually settles around double what it was before the drop.

    Rat population are always linked to food supply. By knocking out a lot of birds and possums their food supply increases.

    The mustalid population in our forests can only be controlled by traps.
    outdoorlad likes this.

  11. #11
    sturg4
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    This is a great game if you can get into it. First you create a problem, Then scream blue murder until the Government gives you millions to fix it.
    Except in the process you make the problem worse which requires more millions and the problem gets worse still and so we have gone on for the sixty years we have been using 1080

  12. #12
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    As a newby to these great shores, it simply amazes me that the same method of control is still being used after so many years, yet with apparently poor results.
    The TB vector issue is a very debatable one to say the least.
    Forgotmaboltagain+1

  13. #13
    Member stumpy's Avatar
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    cheers guys this is exactly what I wanted to read , many thanks , .... I remember watching the latest james bond movie (skyfall) and on it the lead bad guy , tells of an island full of rats , so they dug a hole and threw a handful of rats in it , and let them fight to the death when they got hungry enough, so at the end you had a rat that only wanted to eat other rats thereby changing its nature ...... would this work ? or is it all bullshit or would we need smaller islands?
    NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT HURTS, HOW DARK IT GETS OR HOW FAR YOU FALL , .....
    YOU ARE NEVER OUT OF THE FIGHT . (Marcus Luttrell)

  14. #14
    sturg4
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumpy View Post
    cheers guys this is exactly what I wanted to read , many thanks , .... I remember watching the latest james bond movie (skyfall) and on it the lead bad guy , tells of an island full of rats , so they dug a hole and threw a handful of rats in it , and let them fight to the death when they got hungry enough, so at the end you had a rat that only wanted to eat other rats thereby changing its nature ...... would this work ? or is it all bullshit or would we need smaller islands?
    Interesting concept 'Stumpy'. Cannibal Rats Huh, its something I have never thought about.

    A few years back when we were doing a lot of work up the Wanganui River which had masses of goats. The guy I worked with and I talked about a scheme whereupon we would train up packs of dogs to hunt goats and then we would fly out and leave them behind.

    The theory being they would continue to hunt goats to survive. But remembering the wild dog packs that inhabited the Urewera's , Kaiangaroa, Ruahines and a few other blocks and the trouble they could cause we realized in the end it was a dream.

    There was a wonderful story around when I was a kid. I can only remember a little of it now.

    In the not so distant past a ship load to the gunwales with prime American wheat lost a hatch cover in a storm. The moisture that entered the hold caused the grain to expand which in turn cracked her timber hull near the keel. She was immediately abandoned by her Indonesian crew who feared she would sink immediately. She didn't, she floated around for many months and the few rats aboard her bred into millions with all the food on board, until as a hulk she beached herself on and island where a solitary old Lighthouse Keeper lived.

    Well within a few weeks the rats had eaten every scrap of living matter on this little barren island and then they came after him the lighthouse Keeper. The squeek's of the living and the squeals of the dying alerted him to the gathering near his quarters and he barricaded himself in the lighthouse. But the rats began to climb a tree and throw themselves against the windows in a continuous stream until a couple of extremely large specimens hitting it together finally broke a pane of glass. The old man had armed himself with a club and as each rat scrambled through the broken pane of glass he clubbed it dead and it was in an instant devoured by the cannibal horde that had survived on the hulk through a method that rats excel at, namely 'survival of the fittest' or the 'hungriest'.

    The old man fought them for a night and a day until fatigue began to overtake him and he missed a rat which immediately attacked his bare feet but he could not stop to deal with it for fear he would miss another. Eventually he missed another and it too on the verge of starvation attacked his feet also. Then he began to miss more regularly and those rats too began their gruesome feast beginning on the particularly painful knuckles of his poor old bent toes. Soon he could fight no more and he slowly sank to the floor beneath the mass of hairy bodies. His last thought funnily enough was how he had always hated the smell of rat piss.

    I admit to filling in parts of the story I cant remember.
    Last edited by Scribe; 03-10-2014 at 12:58 PM.
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  15. #15
    Member Pengy's Avatar
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    Sounds like Hitchcock movie
    Forgotmaboltagain+1

 

 

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