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Thread: Questions about Ventilators

  1. #1
    Member Max Headroom's Avatar
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    Questions about Ventilators

    I'm curious about ventilators.

    So to any medical/tech professionals, a few questions, keeping in mind I'm a layman with a very basic knowledge of medicine:

    What exactly do they do?

    How complicated do they need to be ?

    How difficult would it be for a kiwi company to make the most basic kind?
    RIP Barry S. 18/01/20

  2. #2
    Just like Mimms the First
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    Regulation is what kills it, from a manufacuring perspective. The mechanics are straight forward.
    But when every pin and screw in the thing needs to be traced to origin and processed in medical-grade facilities, guaranteed non-contaminated, non-toxic etc.
    Diligentia Vis Celeritas
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  3. #3
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    Skilled people to run them will be the biggest problem, my wife is a critical care nurse so ventilators are her bread and butter - she's looking at supervising up to 6 "new" staff when one skilled person per patient is still a lot of work (to give good care)
    Moa Hunter likes this.

  4. #4
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    You could probably find that fisher and paykal (how do you spell that) make them. You know that once NZ company that got rid of its workers here to move manufacturing to china to make more money. The demand worldwide will be huge so the prices of such equipment will skyrocket.

  5. #5
    Just like Mimms the First
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    There was a TED on someone who was making almost no-tech hospital equipment, for the likes of africa (where clean water and electricity are not guaranteed available) Can't recall the name.
    Diligentia Vis Celeritas
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  6. #6
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    Max: as always, I'm just a random dude on the interweb, and this is my free opinion.

    Ventilators are actually relatively straightforward mechanical devices in principle, but as the product of the inventors who design them and the engineers who craft them, they reflect the very remarkable skills of these people - so as machines they can do an excellent job of supporting and replacing the patient's own breathing efforts until the lungs heal, if they do.

    But, and this is the kicker IMO; a ventilated patient requires so much more than just something to push air into the inside of the lungs to raise the chest and oxygenate the ailing alveoli (that's a horrible oversimplification and doesn't address things like CPAP etc but it'll do for now).

    The nursing cares alone for a ventilated sedated patient are very onerous on the nurses; and especially when you've got the type of adult respiratory distress syndrome that the ChiCom virus inflicts on people, it's a very fine balancing act to put in enough but not too much oxygen; not overdo the peak airway pressure nor the peak end expiratory pressure and risk an iatrogenic pneumothorax; juggle the inspiratory and expiratory phases to match this uniquely-individual patient's optimum function; and so on.

    Decades ago I used to hand-bag patients for hours and of course we can still do that; but people this sick require literally intensive and sophisticated one-on-one care. Without ventilators we can't provide respiratory support anyway; but even if we could manufacture a whole lot of ventilators quickly, I doubt that we could suddenly turn out a cohort of people with the necessary skills and intuition.

    Clearly, NZ's senior super-intensivists both medical and nursing can lead and guide a less educated group, moving from patient to patient to check and adjust settings, chart the necessary pharmaceutical agents, guide the basics of nursing care and titrate all the things that need to be titrated... But it's something that can't ramp up very quickly.

    Italian intensivists are as good as anybody and they were overwhelmed.

    I hope we do not see Lombardy and Madrid in South Auckland and Wellington.

  7. #7
    Lovin Facebook for hunters kiwijames's Avatar
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    I believe Skope in Christchurch are planning to gear up to make them. They’re the guys that make commercial fridges like you see in the dairy and supermarket’s
    The Universe is a cruel, uncaring void. The key to being happy isn't a search for meaning. It's to just keep yourself busy with unimportant nonsense, and eventually, you'll be dead. -Mr Peanutbutter

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
    I'm curious about ventilators.

    So to any medical/tech professionals, a few questions, keeping in mind I'm a layman with a very basic knowledge of medicine:

    What exactly do they do?

    How complicated do they need to be ?

    How difficult would it be for a kiwi company to make the most basic kind?
    I work for a German Ventilation manufacturer and although ventilation seems straight forward they are highly technical devices. Lung recruitment is a very sensitive topic. To much ventilation and the lung can over extend and be permanently damaged. So software and diagnostics with in the device has the ability to automate the required air flow.
    What I can tell you is ventilation companies are not routing the opportunity. In fact they are working together ( even competitors) to fast track basic devices to where they are needed.
    Our company has even partnered with Daimler Benz to use there engineering capacity and equipment to keep our plant operational 24/7.
    Although multinationals are often seen big profiteers in situations like this we have technicians going into harms way to keep hospitals, Fire Service, Emergency services, and Food manufacturing operational.

  9. #9
    Member gadgetman's Avatar
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    Even all the electronics are required to use medical grade components. Your average electronics gear generally has disclaimers about this on the data sheets.
    There are only three types of people in this world. Those that can count, and those that can't!

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    I heard that F&P make about 5000 per year and are one of the leading manufacturers in the world. I also heard from a friend who was just offered ( in the last 6 days) a job at $25 p/h on the assembly line at F&P, that they have orders for 150,000 to be supplied asap...and are ramping up production .

    I dont believe everything I hear, but I do trust this source.......YMMV...
    Moa Hunter likes this.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allgood View Post
    I heard that F&P make about 5000 per year and are one of the leading manufacturers in the world. I also heard from a friend who was just offered ( in the last 6 days) a job at $25 p/h on the assembly line at F&P, that they have orders for 150,000 to be supplied asap...and are ramping up production .

    I dont believe everything I hear, but I do trust this source.......YMMV...
    To my knowledge they don’t make ventilators themselves. They are world leaders is humidity control in ventilation and circuits. So they are complimentary to non invasive and invasive ventilation. ( non invasive - mask to deliver air and invasive - tubes down throat to deliver air)
    sightpicture likes this.

  12. #12
    Member outdoorlad's Avatar
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    I heard that F&P Healthcare shares are the only ones to go up.
    Moa Hunter likes this.
    Shut up, get out & start pushing!

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    From what I'm seeing, NIV is used because there aren't enough machines to run tubed patients on. I suspect that NIV would be employed less often for in extremis cases, if it was not all that was left for many facilities...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sightpicture View Post
    From what I'm seeing, NIV is used because there aren't enough machines to run tubed patients on. I suspect that NIV would be employed less often for in extremis cases, if it was not all that was left for many facilities...
    And this is where our Government has made the ‘lock down’ relatively early. It’s not how many cases you end up having, it’s how many critical cases you have at once.
    You are right if you are critical and end up in an ICU you need invasive ventilation to support you.
    I’m not in favour of many things this government has done but in this they have done the right thing. Just look over the ditch at the mess Scomo has got Australia in.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southcity View Post
    And this is where our Government has made the ‘lock down’ relatively early. It’s not how many cases you end up having, it’s how many critical cases you have at once.
    You are right if you are critical and end up in an ICU you need invasive ventilation to support you.
    I’m not in favour of many things this government has done but in this they have done the right thing. Just look over the ditch at the mess Scomo has got Australia in.
    Relatively early? If you say so.
    Mr Browning likes this.

 

 

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