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Thread: 1st shot flyers

  1. #1
    Member hunter308's Avatar
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    1st shot flyers

    Just wondering what would cause this I noticed the other day while checking the sighting on my scope before heading into the kaimanawas that the first shot on a clean cold barrel would shoot off to the left and couple of inches high and then all other shots would be bang on. What would cause this or is it that my rifle likes to shoot on a fouled barrel, I know that the barrel sits closer to one side of the barrel channel on the stock and would this be contributing towards it.

  2. #2
    Lovin Facebook for hunters kiwijames's Avatar
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    Pretty typical of a clean barrel. Often reffered to as a fouling shot or fouler this will lay down some carbon and copper in the barrel. Typically it will be faster (IIRC) due to less friction in the barrel hence higher POI on paper. Don't worry about it just don't forget about it. I asssume the barrel is still free floated even cold?

  3. #3
    Member hunter308's Avatar
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    The barrel is not free floated there is a pad that the barrel rests on about 1/2 inch back from the end of the barrel channel and it stays like that cold and warm. There is one thing I did notice while out in the bush while sitting down and that was where the bedding pillar is at the front of the action the mounting screw seems to be a little off center.

  4. #4
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    Dont clean your barrel of copper until you have become inaccurate with grouping shots -clean only the carbon then oil.If you barrel is not free floated you will have incosistant grouping anyway .

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    Jeez, some funny ideas on this thread and its only been going for a couple of hours!
    Kiwijames, first shots out of a well cleaned barrel will definitely not be faster than a dirty barrel (within reason). With good cleaning they can be a good 100fps slow coming out of a clean barrel over a fouled barrel. And how much faster would the projectile have to be going to hit 2" high at whatever distance (lets assume 200m until Hunter308 says otherwise)? Barrel harmonics due to the slower projectile could throw it that far out though. That would be my guess anyway.
    Guys shooting F-Class talk about a well fouled barrel needing a clean once the accuracy drops off (See borracho's comment). Often the first indication of this is shots that start climbing up the target.
    Brian, your advice is a little off as well. Being a hunting rifle how would he know it wasn't grouping well? My hunting rifles i clean/oil after every trip, every day if they have got wet (i am running all chrome moly barrels though).
    Also rifles with pressure point bedding (i.e. a pressure point located some point down the barrel) can group very consistently. Often not for extended strings of shots due the the barrel heating up and even shooting off a bipod can screw them up but shot with some understanding they can be very good. Particularly so for a hunting rifle only ever firing 2-3 shot strings.
    If you don't heat the barrel up then most of the "inconsistency" in pressure point bedding comes from the stock fit. If you have had the action and barrel out of the stock for whatever reason (cleaning/oiling) then trying to get the exact same pressure is damn near impossible without torqueing the action screws extremely precisely. This means that if the stock is a bit soft and you have given it a decent knock or if you have had the action out of the stock then you will need to resight the rifle in just to be sure. If you had given the stock a knock then the first shot fired might have bumped it back into place which would cause the rest of your shots to be good.

    Whats the rifle and what distance were you sighting in hunter308?

  6. #6
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    Get a tacticle gun and a sherpa lol

  7. #7
    Lovin Facebook for hunters kiwijames's Avatar
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    Whoa up Gillie. Note the IIRC disclaimer in my post? Slow or fast the end result is a first shot POI from a clean barrel is often different to the next.


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  8. #8
    Member hunter308's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gillie View Post
    Jeez, some funny ideas on this thread and its only been going for a couple of hours!
    Kiwijames, first shots out of a well cleaned barrel will definitely not be faster than a dirty barrel (within reason). With good cleaning they can be a good 100fps slow coming out of a clean barrel over a fouled barrel. And how much faster would the projectile have to be going to hit 2" high at whatever distance (lets assume 200m until Hunter308 says otherwise)? Barrel harmonics due to the slower projectile could throw it that far out though. That would be my guess anyway.
    Guys shooting F-Class talk about a well fouled barrel needing a clean once the accuracy drops off (See borracho's comment). Often the first indication of this is shots that start climbing up the target.
    Brian, your advice is a little off as well. Being a hunting rifle how would he know it wasn't grouping well? My hunting rifles i clean/oil after every trip, every day if they have got wet (i am running all chrome moly barrels though).
    Also rifles with pressure point bedding (i.e. a pressure point located some point down the barrel) can group very consistently. Often not for extended strings of shots due the the barrel heating up and even shooting off a bipod can screw them up but shot with some understanding they can be very good. Particularly so for a hunting rifle only ever firing 2-3 shot strings.
    If you don't heat the barrel up then most of the "inconsistency" in pressure point bedding comes from the stock fit. If you have had the action and barrel out of the stock for whatever reason (cleaning/oiling) then trying to get the exact same pressure is damn near impossible without torqueing the action screws extremely precisely. This means that if the stock is a bit soft and you have given it a decent knock or if you have had the action out of the stock then you will need to resight the rifle in just to be sure. If you had given the stock a knock then the first shot fired might have bumped it back into place which would cause the rest of your shots to be good.

    Whats the rifle and what distance were you sighting in hunter308?
    The rifle is a marlin XS7 stainless 7mm08, first shot was always a flyer then the next few shots would be on the bullseye but more of a horizontal side by side group. Distance 100 meters. Since I posted this I had done a search over at marlin owners forums and found that others had been having similar issues and everything pointed back to pressure pads at the front of the stock causing some issues. I took the action out of the stock to have a look and found that the right hand pressure pad was a bit higher than the other when I measured with a digital caliper so have removed both pads to make the barrel fully free floating, also I found a lot of back and forward movement in the recoil lug area of the stock so have also bedded that area with some epoxy with liberal coatings of silicone spray on the action and recoil lug, also gave the left hand side of the barrel channel a bit of a sand to try and stop the barrel from touching that area, so far the action is back in the stock waiting for the epoxy to set and so far everything is looking to sit a lot better in the stock. Will have to go back down to Taupo to use the range to test it out in a few days got nowhere else close by to Te Awamutu to let off a few shots.

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    Sorry Kiwijames, re-reading my post that came off a lot harsher than i intended.

    Brian, you ain't gettin' no apology

    Pressure point bedding can produce good groups. Often the location of those groups can vary slightly from day to day, bipod loading or not, hot barrel or not... which is why most people prefer free floating barrels.

  10. #10
    Lovin Facebook for hunters kiwijames's Avatar
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    Sweet as Gillie. Often it comes out on the keyboard different than you'd intended. Good to have your input.

  11. #11
    Member el borracho's Avatar
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    nO sweat Gillie all good LOL

  12. #12
    R93
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    If you still have a clean bore flyer after your accurizing, which I suspect you will. You could try coating your projectiles. Some say leaving a film of oil in the barrel will also help, but how much and who wants to try and follow up a shot thru smoke if needed. Projectile coating is easier to get consistent. I still loose a bit of velocity on a cold clean barrel but my POI is always where I want it. It is less of a variable and predictable.

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    I always find this topic fascinating!!

    If i'm going to go hunting and the only shot I'll get at an animal is say 300+ yds away then it's my first shot that is crucial obviously but if it's always going to be a "flyer" then thats a pain in the ass! Now I don't have a huge amount of experience with firearms. ballistics and these sorts of matters but I do research alot and talk to a few ol' timers. I used to be of the school of thought of only cleaning my barrel every 20+ shots. I was told that was a bad habbit and that I should do it after every hunt weather I put 1 pill or 10. I do this now and my POI doesn't change at all. Weather it's cleaning it every time? the type of pills? or that a leave abit of kroil oil in it for that first shot?

    One of my mates is the most fastidious gun cleaner in the world! Now....he has a few rifles and his cleaning regime is different for each one - because he's found each rifle prefers different cleaning products weather it's carbon cleaner or copper remover. Some will say what a load off shit, but thats what he has found that works and all of his guns don't have a flyer at all and they are different makes. So I'm a believer that you can have a rifle that doesn't produce a flyer if you find the right cleaning solutions.

  14. #14
    Member Beavis's Avatar
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    My Remington 700 used to be bad for this. I don't really get this problem because I don't clean my barrels until the groups go to shit. To do other wise is pointless.

  15. #15
    Almost literate. veitnamcam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    My Remington 700 used to be bad for this. I don't really get this problem because I don't clean my barrels until the groups go to shit. To do other wise is pointless.
    My 85 gets cleaned after every outing fired or not (blued walnut) the point of this is to keep a $3000 rifle from rusting the bore.
    The extent of this clean varies from one oil soaked patch to a full copper and carbon clean usually around the 50r mark.
    I cant pick the first shot out of a 3 shot cold clean group with amaxes tho it would undoubtedly be slower.
    Barnes it seems to chuck the first on a cold clean barrel about 1 inch high and half a inch left @ 100y. Not enough to concern me
    "Hunting and fishing" fucking over licenced firearms owners since ages ago.

 

 

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