22LR Technique or Rifle Issue?

Both of these groups are 10 shots at 35m. Each ring is 1MOA. The targets were shot off a front rest and rear bag.

This one was shot squeezing the rear bag. The recoil lifted the reticle approximately 3MOA above the target each shot. And on one occasion up, and to the right, which is the shot by itself.
Attachment 240272

This one was shot resting my hand on the scope.The recoil lifted the reticle approximately 1MOA above the target.
Attachment 240273

Questions:
1. Is this normal for rimfires to react like this with a rear bag vs scope hold?
2. If the recoil impulse is driving the rifle directly up how are the shots able to hit low and left?
3. Is my technique bad while squeezing the bag?
4. Is there a mechanical issue (Nothing is loose)?

1. Yes. 2.You must hold the rifle in a consistent manner, both while sighting in and target shooting/hunting, to get the same result. Holding the scope will affect the barrel harmonics which determines where the muzzle is at the time the projectile leaves the muzzle. 3. No, see answer to 2.

Try holding the forend like your ancestors have done forever...and see how your groups look.

The scope hold group shows the rifle can group reasonably well.

The front rest / bag squeeze group shows variation of 6-8 moa which is not normal.

Id suggest trying a different front rest eg bipod or softer front bag.
Possibly the barrel is very close to the fore end somewhere and holding down on the scope makes contact more consistent.
Can you run a piece if card right back between barrel and wood ?
Another possibility is that a screw has bottomed out so feels tight but allows movement between shots. Could be either bedding or in the scope mounting.

I think there will be a single problem and when you stumble across it the gun will shoot really well.

Rimfire rifles are very susceptible to impact changes caused by different degrees of pressure on the stock. Your rifle should shoot Ok resting over bags, after all that's what the bench rest fraternity use.
However you must take care to be consistent with other points of contact, possible causes of your poor grouping can be variances in rifle butt to shoulder pressure, cheek to stock pressure and then hand to pistol grip which tends to have more variance and influence the higher the trigger weight is. In your first group, the fact that you noticed the differing recoil which resulted in the high right shot indicates there are some pressure variables on the stock. It is also important that when squeezing the rear bag that you are not subconsciously moving the rifle onto the aiming point, let the bag take to weight of the butt.

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Originally Posted by Magnetite

Both of these groups are 10 shots at 35m. Each ring is 1MOA. The targets were shot off a front rest and rear bag.

This one was shot squeezing the rear bag. The recoil lifted the reticle approximately 3MOA above the target each shot. And on one occasion up, and to the right, which is the shot by itself.
Attachment 240272

This one was shot resting my hand on the scope.The recoil lifted the reticle approximately 1MOA above the target.
Attachment 240273

Questions:
1. Is this normal for rimfires to react like this with a rear bag vs scope hold?
2. If the recoil impulse is driving the rifle directly up how are the shots able to hit low and left?
3. Is my technique bad while squeezing the bag?
4. Is there a mechanical issue (Nothing is loose)?

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now I could be wild of the mark here but I was always told shots shots like that first target i.e stringing out on an angle are a breathing issue - so could be breathing hold or both - get someone else to shoot it ( someone who can shoot ) and see how they do

It took me years (and I sold some rifles I thought wouldn't shoot but were in fact "hold sensitive) to get consistent with 22s off the bench/bipod.

Consistency of hold (and there are several styles of hold, they all work as you have found with your hand on top) and particularly "natural point of aim" were key for me in getting from "around 0.5" groups to under 0.3s on demand.

To stay around or under the magic 0.5" mark you also need top notch ammo, even $20 a box target ammo can have a "surprise" in every box.

I wouldn't think breathing movement would give such a large variation at 35m.
I'm wondering if you are resting the BARREL, rather than the stock, on the front rest? This would certainly cause issues, and you might not even realise your doing that.

What ammo are you using

I did some more shooting the other day got the following groups.

Scope hold:
Attachment 240461

Forend hold:
Attachment 240462

Bag hold:
Attachment 240463

So it looks like each method will shoot with similar precision. The bag hold appears to be the most sensitive to inconstancy of hold/pressure.
@Micky Duck when you use a forend hold do you pull the rifle down into the bags to load it, or should the grip be neutral and not affect the point of aim?
@Bagheera I can't even fit a piece of paper between the two.
@stickman I'm resting on the stock, not the barrel.
@blip the ammo is RWS Club.

Thanks for everyone's help.

you could try putting something temporary under the action to float the barrel and try it.

Attachment 240466

One recommended way of testing whether there are barrel contact problems is to put a pice of card under just the 2-3cm of battel by the tip of the fore end. The rest of the barrel should be floating then.

My old Ruger 10/22 only had one bedding screw so the tip had to be bedded.

Given that your groups are more circular now it might be w orth trying a known good brand of ammo. Eg CCI sub or HP are alternatives equivalent to RWS in most guns.

Keep doing 10 shot groups as youve only got a couple of flyers in each now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magnetite

Both of these groups are 10 shots at 35m. Each ring is 1MOA. The targets were shot off a front rest and rear bag.

This one was shot squeezing the rear bag. The recoil lifted the reticle approximately 3MOA above the target each shot. And on one occasion up, and to the right, which is the shot by itself.
Attachment 240272

This one was shot resting my hand on the scope.The recoil lifted the reticle approximately 1MOA above the target.
Attachment 240273

Questions:
1. Is this normal for rimfires to react like this with a rear bag vs scope hold?
2. If the recoil impulse is driving the rifle directly up how are the shots able to hit low and left?
3. Is my technique bad while squeezing the bag?
4. Is there a mechanical issue (Nothing is loose)?

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Not being an arse, but why would one hold the scope?

Just a firm hold with some rearward pressure.

@Growlybear it's just resting your hand on top of the scope. In theory it reduces some of the movement from breathing, and consistently settles the rifle into the bag. Which may help with first round shots. Disclaimer: the 22 seems to like it, and my Swede hates it.
@Micky Duck applying rearward pressure with both hands, or just the forend?

Greetings,
.22 RF rifles have a long barrel time (the projectile takes a while to get to the end) and punish any lack of follow through (keeping the hold the same after the shot) severely. Get someone to watch you shoot the rifle to see if you are lifting your head or flicking your finger off the trigger at the shot. You may not be aware of it but an observer will spot it right away. Shooting at 35 metres needs a scope free of parallax at that distance rather than a high power scope. I don't think it is the rifle.
Regards Grandpamac.

The other thing I've noticed over the years when i take someone out and observe them is a lot of people close their eyes just as they fire the shot and they dont even know they are doing it..

Just an idea , get someone else to shoot it and that will eliminate you out of the equation.

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Originally Posted by Growlybear

Not being an arse, but why would one hold the scope?

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Bipod technique. It works (if done right).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No.3

Bipod technique. It works (if done right).

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Well, bugger me. It seems an unnatural way to hold a rifle, but I don't use a bipod.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magnetite

@Growlybear it's just resting your hand on top of the scope. In theory it reduces some of the movement from breathing, and consistently settles the rifle into the bag. Which may help with first round shots. Disclaimer: the 22 seems to like it, and my Swede hates it.
@Micky Duck applying rearward pressure with both hands, or just the forend?

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forestock only....you holding it firmly..not squeazing it to death...the trigger hand is far more relaxed or will twist things.
breathing SHOULD take Xhairs up and down through bulls eye...time it so you have a mini pause of breath as centre it and squeaze off...that technique is as old as the hills....
if you think your posture/hold is good. close eyes for a count of 20 and when open them,the Xhairs will still be on target.

I would be getting another competant shooter to shoot your rifle. Compare results .

Often times its the nut behind the butt , although its natural to blame yourself last.

A very hold sensitive rifle is not an accurate rifle.

What is the rifle?

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Originally Posted by jusepy81

Just an idea , get someone else to shoot it and that will eliminate you out of the equation.

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More helpful would be for the OP to put up some groups fired from a known good rifle.

If you have no clearance between barrel and rifle stock then I'd look at free floating the barrel.
Although you are 'resting' the stock on the rest, if the stock is touching the barrel then you are effectively also resting the barrel on the rest.
What 'front rest' did you use? (though I'm fairly sure it's not a SEB or a Farley).:D
What padding did the front rest have...any at all, hard, soft, etc?
How good is the trigger? Hard to pull, lots of travel, etc? Can you adjust it to be better?
What rifle? Ruger 10-22? (rough guess there).
That ammo should be fine, but .22 rimfire rifles are picky. But your targets suggest other problems before looking at ammo choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grey Kiwi

If you have no clearance between barrel and rifle stock then I'd look at free floating the barrel.
Although you are 'resting' the stock on the rest, if the stock is touching the barrel then you are effectively also resting the barrel on the rest.
What 'front rest' did you use? (though I'm fairly sure it's not a SEB or a Farley).:D
What padding did the front rest have...any at all, hard, soft, etc?
How good is the trigger? Hard to pull, lots of travel, etc? Can you adjust it to be better?
What rifle? Ruger 10-22? (rough guess there).
That ammo should be fine, but .22 rimfire rifles are picky. But your targets suggest other problems before looking at ammo choice.

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hang on whoa up before ya go at it with angle grinder and a large hammer get someone who is a good shooter to see what they can do with it - my intuition tells me this is a breathing or hold or technique issue and not a mechanical problem

That 2nd photo where you held the scope was damn good except for one shot however I have never heard of anyone doing that and nor would I ever do it myself but it would suggest the riffle can group.

I also thought your barrel must have been touching the front rest but you have ruled that out.

Shooting group too fast, hot barrel?

Windy perhaps?

If you could replicate target 2 off the rest I would say it is sufficent.