3 shot groups are useless!

I can't complain about my 3 shot groups at 100 meters

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Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag

I can't complain about my 3 shot groups at 100 meters

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bout 2 to left and 2 up and hunting well thats what I would do good groups

Well today was a bit of a "hard day in the office" for several of the "three shot boys" and just about everyone else.

So we ran an open day at the range, rock up, fire a validation shot or group at 100M, then back to our 600Y mound, which is 571M to gongs. Wind was very light, a weather station about 1.3KM away showed 6-9 km/h coming over shooters right shoulder, often no wind at the firing point.

36 shooters turned up, with a fair range of rifles but quite a bit of "higher end stuff" in calibres from 6mm Dasher to 338Lap, a lot of PRC's, belted mags and the like in the list.

So how many shooters were able to put 3 consecutive shots on a 6" gong (they had multiple options of bigger ones to practise on, and no time pressure), I can tell you it wasn't very many but humor me with your guesses if you like. I just chatted with them (too many shooters turned up for me to have a go, we three RO's had our hands full managing) and guess what - 100 % of the guys I talked with were in the 3 shot crowd.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Well today was a bit of a "hard day in the office" for several of the "three shot boys" and just about everyone else.

So we ran an open day at the range, rock up, fire a validation shot or group at 100M, then back to our 600Y mound, which is 571M to gongs. Wind was very light, a weather station about 1.3KM away showed 6-9 km/h coming over shooters right shoulder, often no wind at the firing point.

36 shooters turned up, with a fair range of rifles but quite a bit of "higher end stuff" in calibres from 6mm Dasher to 338Lap, a lot of PRC's, belted mags and the like in the list.

So how many shooters were able to put 3 consecutive shots on a 6" gong (they had multiple options of bigger ones to practise on, and no time pressure), I can tell you it wasn't very many but humor me with your guesses if you like. I just chatted with them (too many shooters turned up for me to have a go, we three RO's had our hands full managing) and guess what - 100 % of the guys I talked with were in the 3 shot crowd.

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That was because us 3 shot guys are a pretty relaxed bunch. The 5 plus shot guys would have all been too busy fussing over their gear and fiddling to chat.

A lot of hunters would save a lot of ammo if they stayed inside the 400yds range.They still gota walk to the deer.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Well today was a bit of a "hard day in the office" for several of the "three shot boys" and just about everyone else.

So we ran an open day at the range, rock up, fire a validation shot or group at 100M, then back to our 600Y mound, which is 571M to gongs. Wind was very light, a weather station about 1.3KM away showed 6-9 km/h coming over shooters right shoulder, often no wind at the firing point.

36 shooters turned up, with a fair range of rifles but quite a bit of "higher end stuff" in calibres from 6mm Dasher to 338Lap, a lot of PRC's, belted mags and the like in the list.

So how many shooters were able to put 3 consecutive shots on a 6" gong (they had multiple options of bigger ones to practise on, and no time pressure), I can tell you it wasn't very many but humor me with your guesses if you like. I just chatted with them (too many shooters turned up for me to have a go, we three RO's had our hands full managing) and guess what - 100 % of the guys I talked with were in the 3 shot crowd.

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I'd guess 3

Well it's safe to say that there was a lot of talk, but generally of a quiet reserved nature, they were with the exception of about 3-4 guys "hunters".

On the bullet catchers (at 571M) we had a 400mm gong, then a 300mm, an 200mm, and finally the 150mm.

Maybe a third the guys made a first shot hit on the 400mm. Several "confident" chaps started on the 300mm. Nearly all of them missed.

There was much talk along the lines of "wtf my app says a come-up of X" and our spotters would have to gently point out "well your impact was Y moa low, so wind on another 12 clicks or whatever".

We had a Garmin chrony there and several were relying on factory or guesstimate velocities, most of them had to make big corrections - usually with much muttering of "wtf, how come it's 200 fps slow".

One of our helpers is a pretty good PRS shooter, he makes the podium at shoots occasionally and is very consistently in the "top ten" at any shoot. He made 3 consecutive shots on the 150, I didn't see if he started there, probably not, and he commented that the wind was switching impacts the full width of the plate.

Another guy who is an experienced club member was able to do 3 after a couple of tries.

About half the shooters didn't try or didn't hit the 150mm gong, which was fair enough, they were kinda set up and it's a tough challenge to shoot MOA at 600Y to point of aim. The 10 ring on a 600Y F class target is 6", and it is very hard to shoot a "possible" without good gear, and a hell of a lot of practise, and finally on the day, a wee bit of luck.

Everyone (well mostly, one or two of the hunters buggered off quick and a couple of the "non hunters" were positively snotty) seemed to enjoy themselves, nearly everyone wanted to come back, which was good for hunting, and good for our club, it's exactly what we were wanting to achieve.

Oh and yes, there were several Tikka's there, as you would expect, but they were not any better or worse that the rest!

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Oh and yes, there were several Tikka's there, as you would expect, but they were not any better or worse that the rest!

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I suspect that hitting the 6" gong at 600 yards is 99% down to the shooters ability, not the rifles.

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Originally Posted by Shearer

I suspect that hitting the 6" gong at 600 yards is 99% down to the shooters ability, not the rifles.

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600hundy a long awayaway.Id swopp the 308 for a hot 300wm.I like horse power.

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Originally Posted by Shearer

I suspect that hitting the 6" gong at 600 yards is 99% down to the shooters ability, not the rifles.

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Indeed, which is a point that has been made repeatedly I think.

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Originally Posted by gimp

It is also largely irrelevant for hunting, as I've noted before. As hunters we shoot at large targets at close ranges, mainly. The limiting factor is generally shooter proficiency, by far, not the fact that they are shooting a 1.5moa rifle (that averages .75 3 shot groups, in a slightly different spot each time).

However the converse is also true - for hunting it's irrelevant to have a ".x MOA rifle" so maybe we should stop claiming that with inadequate data

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For those that wish to state that this subject is irrelevant to the average hunter who wishes to remain ignorant: Yes, we get that. The idea of having a "0.x MOA rifle" is also irrelevant to the average hunter however in practical application - it is inconsistent to want to make irrelevant statements around the precision of your rifle system, but not want to discuss the merits of the criteria used to arrive at that conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Well it's safe to say that there was a lot of talk, but generally of a quiet reserved nature, they were with the exception of about 3-4 guys "hunters".

On the bullet catchers (at 571M) we had a 400mm gong, then a 300mm, an 200mm, and finally the 150mm.

Maybe a third the guys made a first shot hit on the 400mm. Several "confident" chaps started on the 300mm. Nearly all of them missed.

There was much talk along the lines of "wtf my app says a come-up of X" and our spotters would have to gently point out "well your impact was Y moa low, so wind on another 12 clicks or whatever".

We had a Garmin chrony there and several were relying on factory or guesstimate velocities, most of them had to make big corrections - usually with much muttering of "wtf, how come it's 200 fps slow".

One of our helpers is a pretty good PRS shooter, he makes the podium at shoots occasionally and is very consistently in the "top ten" at any shoot. He made 3 consecutive shots on the 150, I didn't see if he started there, probably not, and he commented that the wind was switching impacts the full width of the plate.

Another guy who is an experienced club member was able to do 3 after a couple of tries.

About half the shooters didn't try or didn't hit the 150mm gong, which was fair enough, they were kinda set up and it's a tough challenge to shoot MOA at 600Y to point of aim. The 10 ring on a 600Y F class target is 6", and it is very hard to shoot a "possible" without good gear, and a hell of a lot of practise, and finally on the day, a wee bit of luck.

Everyone (well mostly, one or two of the hunters buggered off quick and a couple of the "non hunters" were positively snotty) seemed to enjoy themselves, nearly everyone wanted to come back, which was good for hunting, and good for our club, it's exactly what we were wanting to achieve.

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It's what you'd expect. A 1MOA target at longer ranges is terribly difficult to hit consistently if you are honest with yourself.

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Originally Posted by Trout

A lot of hunters would save a lot of ammo if they stayed inside the 400yds range.They still gota walk to the deer.

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I would recommend most hunters stay under 300m, unless they have actually trued their data at longer distances and have shot a reasonable amount at longer distances.

I don't do a huge amount of hunting, the longest range shot I've taken was on a goat at 460yards.
This was with a 260 Tikka I had shot on an NRA out to 600yards, I knew my scope, rifle and ammo was up to the task, there was also not a breath of wind and I had an excellent prone position off a bipod.
460yards is a bloody long way on an animal, and had I not done the practise before or there had been a breath of wind I wouldn't have dreamt of taking that shot.

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Originally Posted by gimp

It's what you'd expect. A 1MOA target at longer ranges is terribly difficult to hit consistently if you are honest with yourself.

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I fully agree it's a very tough challenge (to hit a 6" plate 3 times at 571M) but there are a lot of comments on here that cause me to doubt that people are honest with themselves and the internet about the capabilities of their rifle and themselves.

For example, a decent 3 shot group posted up on a plate at some "out there" distance, but the plate is quite big, and worse, the group isn't centered, if the group was placed on an deer it's gonna be gut-shot or something like it, and at longer range, seldom finished off.

Tahr shooting the same, many animals shot too far away, they can't be retrieved due to terrain, and if they are only wounded, they stay that way.

I need to practice a lot more, my longest shot on a goat was 30m, longest on a deer was 50m (haven't shot many), longest shot total on an animal was 110m on a hare that really made my day when it connected. Did I say I need to practice more?

A 3 shot group would have to be better than bore sighting a scope and calling it done, surley?

Is this 3 shot group of mine at 200 yards a reliable indicator of accuracy?? Seriously. Im sure this is how the absolute majority of hunters think.

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I shoot 3 shoot groups to establish and check my zero. Sometimes just 2 shots. Often. If they aren't .75" or under I go looking for the problem. If overlaid over say a year there would likely be a 1" group or under, with maybe the odd outlier. Isn't that enough? Oh, and I validate my drop charts at about 300 yards.

Later, after Gimps reply (below). This gun and others' will hold this game accuracy out to the max I shoot at of about 400 yards. I get probably 75% hits on game down to the size of wallaby at 400. I expect though that I would be a bit disappointed in the group size on paper at 400. And at Tentman's range days I would probably go home with my tail between my legs.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

If overlaid over say a year there would likely be a 1" group or under, with maybe the odd outlier. Isn't that enough?

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It would be interesting to see a few, if you have some from the same rifle without adjustments between. Overlay them and test your assumption?


I'm not going to belabour the point that I've made in almost every post on this subject, that yes, it is irrelevant to hunting at conventional ranges. But I will repeat it.

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Originally Posted by gimp

It would be interesting to see a few, if you have some from the same rifle without adjustments between. Overlay them and test your assumption?


I'm not going to belabour the point that I've made in almost every post on this subject, that yes, it is irrelevant to hunting at conventional ranges. But I will repeat it.

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I will have a go at a variation of your 10 shot group. Will fire 3 3shot groups and stand and walk around between groups. Will try a .223 and a bigger banger. I will post the result regardless of the egg on my face. When this rain stops.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

I will have a go at a variation of your 10 shot group. Will fire 3 3shot groups and stand and walk around between groups. Will try a .223 and a bigger banger. I will post the result regardless of the egg on my face. When this rain stops.

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I'm not confident that there'll be egg. But you'll be better placed to make data-driven statements after the fact! (statements which are irrelevant to hunting at conventional ranges)

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Originally Posted by gimp

I'm not confident that there'll be egg. But you'll be better placed to make data-driven statements after the fact! (statements which are irrelevant to hunting at conventional ranges)

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Sumarises the thread very nicely. But it also means my view of those who say (particularly when they are selling a rifle, be it used or new) that "its a tack driver, shoots MOA easy" is in most cases pure crap when based on a 3 shot group.

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Originally Posted by Tahr

Is this 3 shot group of mine at 200 yards a reliable indicator of accuracy?? Seriously. Im sure this is how the absolute majority of hunters think.

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I shoot 3 shoot groups to establish and check my zero. Sometimes just 2 shots. Often. If they aren't .75" or under I go looking for the problem. If overlaid over say a year there would likely be a 1" group or under, with maybe the odd outlier. Isn't that enough? Oh, and I validate my drop charts at about 300 yards.

Later, after Gimps reply (below). This gun and others' will hold this game accuracy out to the max I shoot at of about 400 yards. I get probably 75% hits on game down to the size of wallaby at 400. I expect though that I would be a bit disappointed in the group size on paper at 400. And at Tentman's range days I would probably go home with my tail between my legs.

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Hey its "minute of deer" and that's all a hunter needs.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Sumarises the thread very nicely. But it also means my view of those who say (particularly when they are selling a rifle, be it used or new) that "its a tack driver, shoots MOA easy" is in most cases pure crap when based on a 3 shot group.

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many of us will debate that for hours - put a dry rag thru barrel- take to range - have an accurate shooter put 3 shots thru - that will show what the rifle is doing - in real terms - any more is just playing - now argue that logic as long as you like - but for me it is that first shot - why because I zero my rifles and all I want to know is has it held its zero - a 3 shot group has its place and is better than no shot group and just go on a reputation that it shoots

One shot zero is enough for my 308=a dead deer,bugger wasting ammo.

In the Olympics Of Missing The Point, you boys would be gold and silver in the Long Jump Over Reading Comprehension

Thank you Trout - logic - most of my zeroing is one shot to check - that's with my main hunting rifles - they dont move - they know they will be sold if they play up - then I play with my target .22,s and try to get good groups and test my eye out - dont care if I shoot 50 rounds playing with my .22 stuff

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Originally Posted by gimp

In the Olympics Of Missing The Point, you boys would be gold and silver in the Long Jump Over Reading Comprehension

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As amusing as I find this phrase, it is unkind and unhelpful of me

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Originally Posted by 7mm Rem Mag

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Bronze!

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Originally Posted by gimp

In the Olympics Of Missing The Point, you boys would be gold and silver in the Long Jump Over Reading Comprehension

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Your point is made gimp and I think by most understood. But it seems that it is not relatable. That is the point.

I'm not sure the technical point has been understood - precisely because it isn't relatable. Because it doesn't materially have an impact on hunting efficacy at conventional ranges

Just wait til I start on load development.......

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Originally Posted by gimp

Just wait til I start on load development.......

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Cripes

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Originally Posted by gimp

Just wait til I start on load development.......

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keep it up its great reading mate

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Originally Posted by gimp

Just wait til I start on load development.......

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If you shoot any 3 shot groups @Tentman is going to hunt you down and preach at your for days!

And don't you dare show any gong groups on a gong that is too big or a group off center plate, even if you are shooting to test precision and not accuracy!

Mean radius measurements make every shot of value. ..even 3 shot groups. Therefore your thread title isn't precise or accurate...

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Originally Posted by gimp

In the Olympics Of Missing The Point, you boys would be gold and silver in the Long Jump Over Reading Comprehension

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You write too much comprehension over thinking yr groupies.

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Originally Posted by gimp

Just wait til I start on load development.......

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Have to get a reloaders website set up for gimp.Not enough gigs around here.lols

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Originally Posted by Trout

You write too much comprehension over thinking yr groupies.

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Hard case. There is an expression that "sometimes the helicopter needs to land".

It's all good fun . . . Poking a bear sharpens everyone up, especially the slowest runners!

a year or tw oago a forum member "royal twelve" got online as he was having trouble shooting any sort of group...
seen as though he was local to me,I organised to meet him at unofficial local spot suitable to fire rifle..his suggestion of location..driving there I thought to self..I dont know this person and are driving to meet him with rifle in wagon..dodgy much??
anyway first up I got him to fire my 7.62x39mm with subsonic load...just cause I could and he worried about flinch... then fired a super,no problem.
next gave him my .223 and he got down on mound to shoot.."uumm what are you doing hugging yourself?" was my comment when his left hand went onto toe of stock..."hold the bloody stock like its meant to be"..he dutifly did so and proceeded to shoot a tiny under inch group of 6 rounds (all my rifle holds) at hundred yards...... whats this got to do with anything you ask?? those six rounds.....were randoms from my ammo drawer 4 different loads between 50-55grns young Jasper went away now KNOWING he could shoot well.shooting how he had been with his .22magnum his groups were closer to 3" in size
mission accomplished he KNEW he could do it and soon after reported doing so with his .308 no worries.
SOME rifles are like this and at hundy will poke all sorts of loads into same group..all be it a weird shaped group...my old 270 put ten different loads into playing card sized group...it always did it....seems the howa does the same.