303 bullets tumbling

I've just bought a Lithgow 303 at a gun show and grabbed a bunch of that Greek 303 bunker ammo to test it out with.
I haven't put a scope on it yet so was trying to sight in the sights and was unable to hit the targets, after putting up a large board behind the targets, I could see they were getting close, but grouping was not tight and they look like they are going sideways.

I'm hoping its just this cheap ammo at fault, but I thought people found this stuff great.

Any ideas? The rifling in the barrel looked ok to me, that's one reason I bought it. The whole gun looks rather mint I thought.

I associate that with boat tail ammunition in a rifle with a worn throat. I have 2 303s that shoot well with flat base bullets (mk7) but mk 7z the boat tailed machine gun ammo and the Hyland commercial go sideways. I've not tried the Greek hpx so don't know the bullet style. Pull one and that may be your answer

Greetings @Old_School,
The Greek ammo can be variable from excellent to won't fire at all so don't give up yet. By look like they are going sideways do you mean a slightly oval hole or a clear hole showing the the sideways imprint of the projectile. Some .303 rifles can have very loose tolerances. You need to try the rifle with decent ammo or get someone to slug the barrel for you. If you know a handloader they may be able to reload some of the Greek cases for you. The 174 grain round nose is probably the best projectile to try as it seems to shoot well in most rifles. Stay away from spitzer boat tails. Some .303 barrels that look good have eroded throats which may not shoot the boat tails well, or at all. If you are using the original sights make sure that you can see the aiming point clearly. A large black square (at least 100 x 100mm) that you can place the foresight just below showing a thin white line is good. You need to be confident that your sights are aligned the same for each shot. This is an art not gained easily for those of us used to scopes or of advancing years. I assume that your Lithgow is a No1 with open sights.
All the best and let us know of any progress. Grandpamac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I associate that with boat tail ammunition in a rifle with a worn throat. I have 2 303s that shoot well with flat base bullets (mk7) but mk 7z the boat tailed machine gun ammo and the Hyland commercial go sideways. I've not tried the Greek hpx so don't know the bullet style. Pull one and that may be your answer

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Have some pulled Greek projectiles and they are Mk VII.
GPM.

Check your barrel carefully for muzzle damage. Pitting or bore expansion from water or oil in the last 4-5mm can be enough to destabilise bullets. It is also known that a bad flinch with exquisite timing can also flip a bullet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

I associate that with boat tail ammunition in a rifle with a worn throat. I have 2 303s that shoot well with flat base bullets (mk7) but mk 7z the boat tailed machine gun ammo and the Hyland commercial go sideways. I've not tried the Greek hpx so don't know the bullet style. Pull one and that may be your answer

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I have no idea if these greek rounds have boat tail rounds or not, ive read a bit of stuff that they are less accurate that that this is common with boat tail projectiles.

I have a bunch of CAC ammo too, but the guy in the shop told me not to use it unless its an old worn out gun because its corrosive and its ballistics is not the same as modern ammo, so would need to be sighted in for this ammo

Im also reading that some ammo was designed to hit sideways to inflict more injury, but that makes no sense, as that would mean you loose accuracy.

Would not be a bad idea to measure the bullet diameter with calipers and compare to a new one, I see that these rounds have been put through a tumbler to get rid of most of the corrosion, I wonder if that reduces the diameter?

Will need to pull the head off one of these rounds as you say to see the shape of the projectile, but going by the shape of the hole, it suggests its not boat tail.

Now if this is a worn barrel, i believe there is/was a large surplus of new lithgow parts that went on the market. How easy is it to find a good barrel, or should I just look for another gun if this is stuffed?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings @Old_School,
The Greek ammo can be variable from excellent to won't fire at all so don't give up yet. By look like they are going sideways do you mean a slightly oval hole or a clear hole showing the the sideways imprint of the projectile. Some .303 rifles can have very loose tolerances. You need to try the rifle with decent ammo or get someone to slug the barrel for you. If you know a handloader they may be able to reload some of the Greek cases for you. The 174 grain round nose is probably the best projectile to try as it seems to shoot well in most rifles. Stay away from spitzer boat tails. Some .303 barrels that look good have eroded throats which may not shoot the boat tails well, or at all. If you are using the original sights make sure that you can see the aiming point clearly. A large black square (at least 100 x 100mm) that you can place the foresight just below showing a thin white line is good. You need to be confident that your sights are aligned the same for each shot. This is an art not gained easily for those of us used to scopes or of advancing years. I assume that your Lithgow is a No1 with open sights.
All the best and let us know of any progress. Grandpamac.

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They are definitely hitting mostly sideways, and i haven't found any that have hit cleanly straight, from what I understand, this means the bullet is not engaging with the rifling?
I always thought that even if it was a worn barrel, that the bullet would simply loose accuracy, rather than tumble.

Im pretty sure its a Lithgow no3(possibly no4) with open sights, need to have a closer look at the stamping, as its not entirely readable.
I guess i should get a gunsmith to check it out for wear.
Ive always been used to using sights more than scopes in the past, because I used to have an air rifle that I put thousands of rounds through that was open sighted.

Another thing ive noticed with this gun is that the trigger has a huge amount of travel before it will fire, I find you just have to pull the trigger quickly, rather than slowly and risk moving the gun when you take the shot.
I put about 20 rounds through yesterday, as you say, its probably not a bad idea to get some hand loads. I intend to reload mine eventually and these greek cases are supposed to be good quality for reloading.
I dont see any that are severely corroded with significant pitting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

Check your barrel carefully for muzzle damage. Pitting or bore expansion from water or oil in the last 4-5mm can be enough to destabilise bullets. It is also known that a bad flinch with exquisite timing can also flip a bullet.

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I cant see any corrosion when looking down the muzzle, not even any pitting, Would be good to look at another gun to compare the rifling to mine, especially at the muzzle end.


Anyway, here are the photos of the holes ive got on the board. Doesnt look like its boat tail, going by the shape here.
Attachment 209675
Attachment 209676

Lithgow only had tooling for no 3 rifles. Some photos of the markings would sort it quickly
Std process for a quick check if the throat is to drop a bullet in the breech and push it in with a pencil or cleaning rod till it stops. Push a ramrod down the bore till it touches the bullet and mark the rod.
Tap the bullet out, close the bolt on an empty chamber and push the ramrod down till it contacts the bolt face and mark it. Subtract the length of a live round from the second measurement and d the difference is your free bore.
I had a martini Enfield once where the bullet went past the rear sight before it lodged it wasn't especially accurate at all
CAC ammo would be fine to use nowadays people get a little bit obsessed with it being "corrosive" if it was that bad the military wouldn't have used it. A patch soaked in water gets the salt out, dry and oil

Just a thought the rifle doesn't have some splotches of red or white paint, or the letters DP stamped on it does it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Lithgow only had tooling for no 3 rifles. Some photos of the markings would sort it quickly
Std process for a quick check if the throat is to drop a bullet in the breech and push it in with a pencil or cleaning rod till it stops. Push a ramrod down the bore till it touches the bullet and mark the rod.
Tap the bullet out, close the bolt on an empty chamber and push the ramrod down till it contacts the bolt face and mark it. Subtract the length of a live round from the second measurement and d the difference is your free bore.
I had a martini Enfield once where the bullet went past the rear sight before it lodged it wasn't especially accurate at all
CAC ammo would be fine to use nowadays people get a little bit obsessed with it being "corrosive" if it was that bad the military wouldn't have used it. A patch soaked in water gets the salt out, dry and oil

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OK, it will be a MK 3 then.
I will grab a photo of it later today.
I will do as you say and grab a projectile to take the measurements.
Good to know that its not overly corrosive.
I remember a friend telling me that he had to put vinegar down the barrels, then a cup or two of boiling water down the barrel, and then add oil in his gun, but that was a 7.62x39 using old soviet ammo that had corrosive primers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Just a thought the rifle doesn't have some splotches of red or white paint, or the letters DP stamped on it does it

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Not that I can see anywhere, it has BA on the underside of the trigger guard, and also on the back of the receiver neat the safety catch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old_School

OK, it will be a MK 3 then.
I will grab a photo of it later today.
I will do as you say and grab a projectile to take the measurements.
Good to know that its not overly corrosive.
I remember a friend telling me that he had to put vinegar down the barrels, then a cup or two of boiling water down the barrel, and then add oil in his gun, but that was a 7.62x39 using old soviet ammo that had corrosive primers.

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Rest assured it is corrosive. The cause of most buggered 303 barrels along with sawing away at the muzzles with dirty pull through cord.

But all you need to do is use boiling water first to neutralise the deposited shite. Nothing more scientific. And while it is hot get the oil into it.
From my 303 fullbore days I used to have an angled funnel that went into the chamber to make it dead easy to pore boiling water thru. I think Parker Hale used to sell them.

And again, from my 303 fullbore days, anytime you looked at a second hand rifle, aside from gazing up the bore, you tried a loaded round into the muzzle. I have seen many 303s where the projectile would go into the bore right up to the tip of the case's neck. No saying yours will be like that but a quick useful check.

Greetings,
That projectile is really sideways. Mk VII projectiles had a reputation for tumbling after impact but were not supposed to tumble through the air. Similar things were said about the early M16 projectiles but once again they were not supposed to tumble through the air. Reports of the latter are where someone has got things confused.
I believe that your rifle is a No1 Mk III. I have a Lithgow No1 Mk III* that was made in 1943. No1 rifles were not marked that way and neither was the No 3 (usually called a Pattern 14). People get the No and Mk numbers jumbled up quite often. Australia only made No 1 rifles and all No 3 rifles were made in the US.
Most military rifles have a two stage trigger with a heavy first stage and an even heavier second firing stage. You do get used to this and it is important not to snatch (or pull quickly) the trigger as this will result in wide shots. You won't notice the latter with the pills going sideways. The Greek pills seem rather hard to me and I wondered if they were under size but measurement showed they were not at least mine were not.
Regard Grandpamac.

Corrosive CAC is certainly corrosive, not to be triffled with. Those salts get into the steel where it inevitably has microscopic heat and pressure fractures and while pouring boiling water and then oiling helps it never gets it all. Over time the steel darkens and erodes faster than otherwise. I have a pristine barrel and I'll never put corrosive ammo through it. I have black barrels with plenty of rifling and still won't put corrosive ammo thru them. Tried it once but gave up when 2 out of 5 failed to fire. Waste of time IYAM. But each to their own.

When I get hold of old CAC ammo these days I pull the bullets and use them after tumbling clean. The cordite goes under the lemon tree and the brass to the recyclers.

My guess is your .311 dia military projectiles are rattling down a much larger dimensioned bore. They can go as big as .318. And no, the military was not that interested in accurate squad fire from the old battle rifle. The best were reserved for marksmen/snipers the worst for squaddies trained to achieve volume of fire. A bullet traveling sideways will still result in a casualty. While the British Army preferred them to tumble on impact they were not however designed to travel sideways.

Recommend as above that you slug the bore. If its shiny and the throat is reasonable it may be a very worthwhile cast bullet rifle. But I guess it depends what you are after as to keeping it.

I have a 303 195 grain gas check bullet mould I haven't had time to try yet
And a .314 sizer to put the gas checks on after powder coating

Brought all this especially for tired 303 bores

I'm finding vintage bores like the PC bullets

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

I have a 303 195 grain gas check bullet mould I haven't had time to try yet
And a .314 sizer to put the gas checks on after powder coating

Brought all this especially for tired 303 bores

I'm finding vintage bores like the PC bullets

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Are you selling them?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Corrosive CAC is certainly corrosive, not to be triffled with. Those salts get into the steel where it inevitably has microscopic heat and pressure fractures and while pouring boiling water and then oiling helps it never gets it all. Over time the steel darkens and erodes faster than otherwise. I have a pristine barrel and I'll never put corrosive ammo through it. I have black barrels with plenty of rifling and still won't put corrosive ammo thru them. Tried it once but gave up when 2 out of 5 failed to fire. Waste of time IYAM. But each to their own.

When I get hold of old CAC ammo these days I pull the bullets and use them after tumbling clean. The cordite goes under the lemon tree and the brass to the recyclers.

My guess is your .311 dia military projectiles are rattling down a much larger dimensioned bore. They can go as big as .318. And no, the military was not that interested in accurate squad fire from the old battle rifle. The best were reserved for marksmen/snipers the worst for squaddies trained to achieve volume of fire. A bullet traveling sideways will still result in a casualty. While the British Army preferred them to tumble on impact they were not however designed to travel sideways.

Recommend as above that you slug the bore. If its shiny and the throat is reasonable it may be a very worthwhile cast bullet rifle. But I guess it depends what you are after as to keeping it.

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Your bore is significantly oversized which is creating the tumbling.
Your only
Option would be to use oversized cast lead pills.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings,
That projectile is really sideways. Mk VII projectiles had a reputation for tumbling after impact but were not supposed to tumble through the air. Similar things were said about the early M16 projectiles but once again they were not supposed to tumble through the air. Reports of the latter are where someone has got things confused.
I believe that your rifle is a No1 Mk III. I have a Lithgow No1 Mk III* that was made in 1943. No1 rifles were not marked that way and neither was the No 3 (usually called a Pattern 14). People get the No and Mk numbers jumbled up quite often. Australia only made No 1 rifles and all No 3 rifles were made in the US.
Most military rifles have a two stage trigger with a heavy first stage and an even heavier second firing stage. You do get used to this and it is important not to snatch (or pull quickly) the trigger as this will result in wide shots. You won't notice the latter with the pills going sideways. The Greek pills seem rather hard to me and I wondered if they were under size but measurement showed they were not at least mine were not.
Regard Grandpamac.

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Yes, from doing a bit of research, your right, this is a No1, MK3, I got mixed up with the numbers too, still not sure what the difference is between a no1, no2, or no3, I always thought that a no3 was the same thing as a mk3.

What is the idea with the 2 stage trigger? From how i find this gun, it has quite a bit of travel and then stops, and takes quite a bit more pressure to actually fire the gun.

Ive also had someone look at it from the store and says the barrel is stuffed, he showed me how to check and put a 303 round in through the muzzle end, it dropped right in, he said it should have stopped about 3/4 the way in, which means its worn out.

now I need to find another barrel. Where do i find a spare one? I believe there was lots of surplus lithgow parts that alot have been used into making new guns, but with serial numbers that dont match up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Corrosive CAC is certainly corrosive, not to be triffled with. Those salts get into the steel where it inevitably has microscopic heat and pressure fractures and while pouring boiling water and then oiling helps it never gets it all. Over time the steel darkens and erodes faster than otherwise. I have a pristine barrel and I'll never put corrosive ammo through it. I have black barrels with plenty of rifling and still won't put corrosive ammo thru them. Tried it once but gave up when 2 out of 5 failed to fire. Waste of time IYAM. But each to their own.

When I get hold of old CAC ammo these days I pull the bullets and use them after tumbling clean. The cordite goes under the lemon tree and the brass to the recyclers.

My guess is your .311 dia military projectiles are rattling down a much larger dimensioned bore. They can go as big as .318. And no, the military was not that interested in accurate squad fire from the old battle rifle. The best were reserved for marksmen/snipers the worst for squaddies trained to achieve volume of fire. A bullet traveling sideways will still result in a casualty. While the British Army preferred them to tumble on impact they were not however designed to travel sideways.

Recommend as above that you slug the bore. If its shiny and the throat is reasonable it may be a very worthwhile cast bullet rifle. But I guess it depends what you are after as to keeping it.

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OK, I will be careful with the stuff, I guess there is no harm in putting some rounds through this old barrel anyway.
Is all CAC corrosive?
They made the stuff right through the 70s in NZ, the stuff ive got is from the 1940s and 1950s. Im assuming their later ammo had non-corrosive primers? Im not sure when they stopped using cordite either.
Im not sure how to tell if its British CAC or NZ made CAC, as it doesnt have any markings to identify, only the year.

Your right about re-using the projectiles, they are supposed to be really good, some of this CAC stuff ive got is soft point and the rest is all FMJ.
Any reason you throw out the brass? I thought it was some of the best brass for reloading?

Looks like suitable projectiles are not easy to find and no longer made, everything is all boat tail which is harder on these barrels.

Shame no one can manufacture the stuff again to this quality, I wonder what happened to all the old CAC tooling? Someone someday may have an incentive to make better projectiles again?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by akaroa1

I have a 303 195 grain gas check bullet mould I haven't had time to try yet
And a .314 sizer to put the gas checks on after powder coating

Brought all this especially for tired 303 bores

I'm finding vintage bores like the PC bullets

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If I sized and gas checked these prior to powder coating they would come to around .316 as another worn bore last ditch option

I have a 1943 No4mk1.303 longbranch (canadian manufacture) .2 land.groove barrel which absolutely bloody hated 150 gn loads ,sprayed them like a bull elephant with the shits .

I found the best round for sheer thump !was 180gn round nose lead slug .sheeit when that hit its like a 105 howitzer round
I got very lucky actually for a bloke at deerstalker shoot told me -they hate boat tail slugs ,If you use 150gn make sure its flat base .
Gundoc also shortened the barrel on this for me(in your Brisbane st shop days.) and was an absolute mine of information on the quirks of mr .303
This one I bought from Tisdsalls in Cashel mall CHCH many moons ago,,It having been traded in by a competitive target shooter I was told .barrel is in good nick still altho I havent trundled one up the spout for some time!

Just an other wee tip too.if you do come across reasonable CAC mk7ammo do a very very thorough visual check .Should you see a very shiny narrow ring just in front of the case head -get rid of the round !!!!
.Fire it and Ill almost bet both my you know whats youll get case separation .open bolt head and primer fly out case remains insitu. Im reliably informed old brass get brittle with age.Ive got some CAC mk7 in stock(YES CHECKED) ,if and when i do fire it the barrel will get the boiling water vinegar soak ,followed by patches quantity ,then a tender coat of gun oil.

Quote "Your right about re-using the projectiles, they are supposed to be really good, some of this CAC stuff ive got is soft point and the rest is all FMJ.
Any reason you throw out the brass? I thought it was some of the best brass for reloading?" EndQuote

The Military CAC is Berdan primed. Two primer flash holes not the single Boxer hole. Boxer primed is not corrosive to my knowledge - someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Yes you can reload Berdan primed brass or even convert to Boxer. Google is your friend if you want to follow that path.

I've always assumed Berdan primed CAC FMJ cartridges have corrosive primers and Boxer primed CAC sporting ammunition does not. Beware of Berdan primed Military cartridges that have had the original FMJ projectile pulled and replaced with a soft point one and even the cordite replaced with smokeless powder. Will still likely be corrosive. They are corrosive because THE PRIMER is the corrosive element.

Rebuilding the round with a new projectile and smokeless powder was a common practice. Unfortunately, in my experience, a good percentage of them fail to fire because of the old primer.

If you do elect to remake Berdan primed brass, or reload circa1950s era Boxer primed brass, be sure to anneal it first. I learned the hard way that you can seat a projectile and 2-3 days later the neck will split.

Old CAC Boxer primed brass is fine if annealed.

Speaking of tumbling bullets, one of my Long Toms the bore is so worn, a mk7 bullet drops down the barrel barely touching the sides

Quote: " What is the idea with the 2 stage trigger? From how i find this gun, it has quite a bit of travel and then stops, and takes quite a bit more pressure to actually fire the gun." UnQuote

It's a battle rifle. Idea is that raw recruits are not to be trusted with a hair or single stage trigger. To fire a 303B you have to be deliberate. Take up the slack in the first stage, then squeeze to fire. As above you do get used to it. I have a couple where the trigger on the second stage is actually very smooth. Heavy, but smooth. I suspect someone else did some work on them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Quote "Your right about re-using the projectiles, they are supposed to be really good, some of this CAC stuff ive got is soft point and the rest is all FMJ.
Any reason you throw out the brass? I thought it was some of the best brass for reloading?" EndQuote

The Military CAC is Berdan primed. Two primer flash holes not the single Boxer hole. Boxer primed is not corrosive to my knowledge - someone will correct me if I'm wrong. Yes you can reload Berdan primed brass or even convert to Boxer. Google is your friend if you want to follow that path.

I've always assumed Berdan primed CAC FMJ cartridges have corrosive primers and Boxer primed CAC sporting ammunition does not. Beware of Berdan primed Military cartridges that have had the original FMJ projectile pulled and replaced with a soft point one and even the cordite replaced with smokeless powder. Will still likely be corrosive. They are corrosive because THE PRIMER is the corrosive element.

Rebuilding the round with a new projectile and smokeless powder was a common practice. Unfortunately, in my experience, a good percentage of them fail to fire because of the old primer.

If you do elect to remake Berdan primed brass, or reload circa1950s era Boxer primed brass, be sure to anneal it first. I learned the hard way that you can seat a projectile and 2-3 days later the neck will split.

Old CAC Boxer primed brass is fine if annealed.

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OK, thats helpful to know when I come to reloading.

Now ive got to try and find another barrel, is it going to be better to cut my losses and find another gun or is there someone out there with a supply of new barrels?
Where did all these surplus lithgow barrels end up? I believe that there were a number of guns assembled from the surplus stock that was sold off and all have serial numbers that dont match.

Quote: "Now ive got to try and find another barrel, is it going to be better to cut my losses and find another gun or is there someone out there with a supply of new barrels?
Where did all these surplus lithgow barrels end up? I believe that there were a number of guns assembled from the surplus stock that was sold off and all have serial numbers that dont match." UnQuote

Matching numbers matter if you're a collector. Otherwise so what? There's a lot of old 303s coming up for sale at ever increasing prices it seems. Good barrels are the exception. I've never rebarreled one but have kept my eye on prices. I would only do it if the rifle had really nice sporterised wood by e.g. Parker Hale or Churchill of England. Why rebarrel a military rifle that Bubba has sporterized with a wood rasp? I'd expect a quality rebarrel job to cost $800 plus by a reputable GS. Is it worth that to you? Then to get it reasonably accurate you have to set it up with correct fitting of wood and tensions at wrist, Mag plate, forend tension screw etc. Not a trivial exercise but feasible and plenty of accurizing info is available online. Just be aware that rebarreling of itself won't necessarily make the rifle an excellent shooter. Might make it adequate tho if Minute of Deer is your goal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Quote: "Now ive got to try and find another barrel, is it going to be better to cut my losses and find another gun or is there someone out there with a supply of new barrels?
Where did all these surplus lithgow barrels end up? I believe that there were a number of guns assembled from the surplus stock that was sold off and all have serial numbers that dont match." UnQuote

Matching numbers matter if you're a collector. Otherwise so what? There's a lot of old 303s coming up for sale at ever increasing prices it seems. Good barrels are the exception. I've never rebarreled one but have kept my eye on prices. I would only do it if the rifle had really nice sporterised wood by e.g. Parker Hale or Churchill of England. Why rebarrel a military rifle that Bubba has sporterized with a wood rasp? I'd expect a quality rebarrel job to cost $800 plus by a reputable GS. Is it worth that to you? Then to get it reasonably accurate you have to set it up with correct fitting of wood and tensions at wrist, Mag plate, forend tension screw etc. Not a trivial exercise but feasible and plenty of accurizing info is available online. Just be aware that rebarreling of itself won't necessarily make the rifle an excellent shooter. Might make it adequate tho if Minute of Deer is your goal.

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Im not worried about serial numbers matching, especially for a sporter like this.
I was just getting at the fact that there is a bunch of lithgows out there that were assembled from unmatched surplus parts.
Hopefully someone here has some barrels, i do have some contacts to call.

I didnt realise a rebarrel was so complex. I thought you could just screw out the old and screw in the new one, how does the wood affect anything?
At $800 I can buy a full wooded rifle complete with a good barrel, but I still want a sporter, so may have to shop around.

Its not the rebarrel that's complex. Its getting any Enfield 303B shooting at its best that is complex. Whether you rebarrel it or not. But of course it helps to start with a good barrel. What I was trying to get at was putting a new barrel on will not automatically thereof make the rifle a good shooter. You still have to set it up. True of any rifle but quite complex in a Enfield with two pieces of wood joined at the wrist. If you're not wedded to an Enfield, get a P14 which is a much more accurate design

You wont get a good full wood 303 for $800 these days. Lol the days of cheap surplus 303 rifles is well and truly over.
As for a stock of new barrels, you're talking about rifles and parts that were surplused in the 1950s, everything is gone. You cant just walk into a shop and get a new surplus 303 barrel. It just doesnt happen.

Greetings again @Old_School,
Welcome to the rather complicated world of .303 Lee Enfields. 50 or more years ago a .303 was a starter rifle for new hunters, often sold of as soon as a newer factory hunting rifle was purchased. As little as 5 years ago a lightly sporterised .303 with a decent barrel could be had for as little as $100.00. No more. .303 rifles are now in hot demand. Even those who have never owned or even fired one are buying and actually shooting them. Covid may have had a role in this with some stuck at home and spending too much time on the internet.
Possibly time to take stock of what you have. You have a rifle with a bore that looks decent so the first step could be trying to find a load that it will shoot. Forget factory loads for the moment. I think that you said you are a handloader so try some nice soft loads with 174 or 180 grain flat base round nose projectiles and 32 to 34 grains of AR2206H powder. You should be able to find someone in Tauranga who has any kit that you need and possibly some spare projectiles. Try cast lead. Shoot at 50 or even 25 metres to start with. If these keyhole or spray it may be time to think about the barrel. It does not have to be new or .303. A .30 calibre take out barrel rechambered for .30-40 Krag or .30-303 may be possible. I should warn you though that fiddling with old rifles is an addictive though rewarding pastime.
Regards Grandpamac.

If the rifling looks fine, but you can insert a round at the muzzle end and it fits all the way up to the case then the muzzle is certainly worn.
But...maybe the remainder of the barrel is still tight?
Push a cleaning rod through with a tight fitting patch (from the breech end).
If the pressure needed to push the rod through is firm but 'suddenly' feels loose up near the muzzle then you need to figure out what distance from the muzzle does the loose bit start.
Then cut the barrel shorter and recrown it at that point.
Might solve all your problems quite easily.
I have seen an old .303 rebarreled to .444 Marlin.
Don't think you are restricted to only finding a .303 barrel.
Lots of options, just the amount of $$ might not make sense.

If it was me (a confirmed tinkerer) I would slug the bore , that will also give an idea if the depth of engraving for the rifling. If it came out 318 or more I'd first consider 8mm projectiles cast and powder coated or paper patched. Be a bit of a wildcat but a fun project.

Or....https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketpl...0?bof=TZzA1d9w

I suspect the description a bit. There appears to be a sold out if service stamp.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

Lithgow only had tooling for no 3 rifles. Some photos of the markings would sort it quickly
Std process for a quick check if the throat is to drop a bullet in the breech and push it in with a pencil or cleaning rod till it stops. Push a ramrod down the bore till it touches the bullet and mark the rod.
Tap the bullet out, close the bolt on an empty chamber and push the ramrod down till it contacts the bolt face and mark it. Subtract the length of a live round from the second measurement and d the difference is your free bore.
I had a martini Enfield once where the bullet went past the rear sight before it lodged it wasn't especially accurate at all
CAC ammo would be fine to use nowadays people get a little bit obsessed with it being "corrosive" if it was that bad the military wouldn't have used it. A patch soaked in water gets the salt out, dry and oil

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I'm pretty lazy and shoot CAC ammo through my Enfields and don't always use boiling water afterwards. Have had one of them for years and no noticeable difference in barrel or how it shoots. Sweets sorts them out pretty well if I forget for a few weeks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Its not the rebarrel that's complex. Its getting any Enfield 303B shooting at its best that is complex. Whether you rebarrel it or not. But of course it helps to start with a good barrel. What I was trying to get at was putting a new barrel on will not automatically thereof make the rifle a good shooter. You still have to set it up. True of any rifle but quite complex in a Enfield with two pieces of wood joined at the wrist. If you're not wedded to an Enfield, get a P14 which is a much more accurate design

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OK, thats true, but I guess it would be a start, anything has to be better than these bullets that are tumbling!
From what ive learned, the wood has to be tight on the barrel to reduce flexing when fired or something? I believe thats why the lee enfield was fully wooded?
If thats the case, wouldnt all sporters not perform as good?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings again @Old_School,
Welcome to the rather complicated world of .303 Lee Enfields. 50 or more years ago a .303 was a starter rifle for new hunters, often sold of as soon as a newer factory hunting rifle was purchased. As little as 5 years ago a lightly sporterised .303 with a decent barrel could be had for as little as $100.00. No more. .303 rifles are now in hot demand. Even those who have never owned or even fired one are buying and actually shooting them. Covid may have had a role in this with some stuck at home and spending too much time on the internet.
Possibly time to take stock of what you have. You have a rifle with a bore that looks decent so the first step could be trying to find a load that it will shoot. Forget factory loads for the moment. I think that you said you are a handloader so try some nice soft loads with 174 or 180 grain flat base round nose projectiles and 32 to 34 grains of AR2206H powder. You should be able to find someone in Tauranga who has any kit that you need and possibly some spare projectiles. Try cast lead. Shoot at 50 or even 25 metres to start with. If these keyhole or spray it may be time to think about the barrel. It does not have to be new or .303. A .30 calibre take out barrel rechambered for .30-40 Krag or .30-303 may be possible. I should warn you though that fiddling with old rifles is an addictive though rewarding pastime.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Yes, ive learned quite a bit about them over the last week!
They were definitely a common rifle and the most common rifle that most kiwis used for deer once upon a time. Im probably going to look at a 308 for the majority of my hunting, but I still would like a .303 for the kiwi tradition more than anything. I know a fair few who have one, even if they dont use it regularly. Still good for target practice, and they are a bit of our kiwi history.

Your right about the increased demand of .303 rifles, the shops have all told me the same thing. Its quite funny, because there is/was a large number of people who said they wouldnt waste their time with one once upon a time.

Lesson learned anyway, I didnt know much about what to look for when buying one of these, and clearly some of these sellers are selling junk to naive buyers. I dont think I paid too much though, as the parts price on this is still worth at least half of what I paid.

Im pretty sure this barrel is shot, these bullets were clearly tumbling at 30 metres, but if I find the rifling is OK further down, then it might be possible to cut down the barrel as suggested and make it shorter. My friends rifle has been cut down and had it threaded for a suppressor, perhaps this is a common thing done not only to make it suit a suppressor, but make use of worn out barrels perhaps?

I dont handload (yet) but thats what I plan to do to save money on ammo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SLR

You wont get a good full wood 303 for $800 these days. Lol the days of cheap surplus 303 rifles is well and truly over.
As for a stock of new barrels, you're talking about rifles and parts that were surplused in the 1950s, everything is gone. You cant just walk into a shop and get a new surplus 303 barrel. It just doesnt happen.

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The one ive found for $800 isint actually a lee enfield, but an american version and its not 100% identical, things like the magazine are not interchangeable with a lee enfield.
Ive seen the odd wooded enfield go on trademe for under $1000, but who knows what the barrel is like on any of them. I definitely wont buy anything online anyway, I want to inspect anything in person to know what im buying. Im in no rush, so would rather wait for something to come my way thats suitable.

It's probably a no 4 marked us property and yes the magazines don't interchange

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coop

I'm pretty lazy and shoot CAC ammo through my Enfields and don't always use boiling water afterwards. Have had one of them for years and no noticeable difference in barrel or how it shoots. Sweets sorts them out pretty well if I forget for a few weeks.

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Spoke to a contact this week about all of this and turns out he has a few Enfields, tells me all he does after shooting CAC is pour a good amount of hot water down the barrel and oil afterwards. I suspect that the oil protects the barrel from corrosion somewhat anyway.
Either way, he has got mint guns with pristine barrels and has had no issues with corrosion.

He also put me in touch with a chap who has a whole collection of the things and nearly has one from every year they were produced! Looks like I will be able to source a barrel for this gun too, which will keep this shooting for a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marty Henry

It's probably a no 4 marked us property and yes the magazines don't interchange

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Yes I think thats what it was.
I think I will keep a look out for an Enfield no1 mk3 if i get a fully wooded rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old_School

Spoke to a contact this week about all of this and turns out he has a few Enfields, tells me all he does after shooting CAC is pour a good amount of hot water down the barrel and oil afterwards. I suspect that the oil protects the barrel from corrosion somewhat anyway.
Either way, he has got mint guns with pristine barrels and has had no issues with corrosion.

He also put me in touch with a chap who has a whole collection of the things and nearly has one from every year they were produced! Looks like I will be able to source a barrel for this gun too, which will keep this shooting for a bit.




Yes I think thats what it was.
I think I will keep a look out for an Enfield no1 mk3 if i get a fully wooded rifle.

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Greetings again,
From what I have read the hot or boiling water is essential as the corrosion will continue in spite of being oiled. The boiling water is needed the same day as the rifle is fired. After the move from black powder to smokeless the problems with corrosion started. Originally this was blamed on the smokeless powder but investigation showed it was the chlorate primers. The black powder fouling did protect the barrels and was cleaned out much more frequently. The cordite propellant is also quite erosive and this is part of the reason for the long and loose throats on most Lee Enfields.
Regards Grandpamac.

first step is to try some 180grn loads..... 50% of 303s prefer the 150s the other 50% prefer the 180s 174grn was usaul loading so 180 modern makes sense and there was a 200or was it 220 grn really early on??? plenty to play around with before writing it off.if you can source a newish barrel and get it fitted cheap enough that your happy, GO FOR IT .... the russian rimmed round sits between .308 and .30/06 is another option if rebarreling with a .308 bore.... 7.62x54r think it is..the supply of milserp ammuntion for that has just about dried up too..barnaul may still have it.
as long as you can hold a 4" group...you can ethically chest shoot a deer/pig/goat to that range.... put up a plastic milk bottle of water and if you can hit it EVERYTIME you can use rifle to that range.... tumbling definately not ideal,it would probably be bail gun usable only...and marginal at that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Old_School

OK, thats true, but I guess it would be a start, anything has to be better than these bullets that are tumbling!
From what ive learned, the wood has to be tight on the barrel to reduce flexing when fired or something? I believe thats why the lee enfield was fully wooded?
If thats the case, wouldnt all sporters not perform as good?



Yes, ive learned quite a bit about them over the last week!
They were definitely a common rifle and the most common rifle that most kiwis used for deer once upon a time. Im probably going to look at a 308 for the majority of my hunting, but I still would like a .303 for the kiwi tradition more than anything. I know a fair few who have one, even if they dont use it regularly. Still good for target practice, and they are a bit of our kiwi history.

Your right about the increased demand of .303 rifles, the shops have all told me the same thing. Its quite funny, because there is/was a large number of people who said they wouldnt waste their time with one once upon a time.

Lesson learned anyway, I didnt know much about what to look for when buying one of these, and clearly some of these sellers are selling junk to naive buyers. I dont think I paid too much though, as the parts price on this is still worth at least half of what I paid.

Im pretty sure this barrel is shot, these bullets were clearly tumbling at 30 metres, but if I find the rifling is OK further down, then it might be possible to cut down the barrel as suggested and make it shorter. My friends rifle has been cut down and had it threaded for a suppressor, perhaps this is a common thing done not only to make it suit a suppressor, but make use of worn out barrels perhaps?

I dont handload (yet) but thats what I plan to do to save money on ammo.




The one ive found for $800 isint actually a lee enfield, but an american version and its not 100% identical, things like the magazine are not interchangeable with a lee enfield.
Ive seen the odd wooded enfield go on trademe for under $1000, but who knows what the barrel is like on any of them. I definitely wont buy anything online anyway, I want to inspect anything in person to know what im buying. Im in no rush, so would rather wait for something to come my way thats suitable.

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Cheap .303s are still out there! I just bought a no.1 mk3* sporterised for $70! Rough wood but still has the front barrel band, bore is like a mirror and it shoots way straighter than my no.5 which I paid $800 for.
Keep an eye on trademe for honest old blokes who don't care for the way the current market is going.
If I ever sell it it's gonna be $70 again.
I'll probably keep it though hah.