.303 iron sights, Sporterized Long Tom.

So the idea is to sort Dads Long Tom for the lad down south.

It was plurry wet and slippery up the track, so only had a play at 100yds. I’m happy with the windage but it’s 19” high at 100.

When it’s drier I’ll go back to 200. The rear sight can’t go any lower, it seems to me I have to raise the front blade which sits in a lateral dovetail.

I have a Broad Arrow marked .060” front blade, but the dovetail is too small for the dovetail in the ramp.

I was thinking of building the blade up with Devcon and filing it down to get a 200yd zero. Then measure it with the Vernier and getting it built up with weld.

POA was lower dot.

Attachment 212485

Attachment 212486

Thoughts ?

B

My No 4 Mk 1* was shooting about 6” high at 100, as from memory they were/are meant to. I swapped my foresight for a +90 that brought the zero down to (near enough) 100. Trouble then was that ladder site calibrations didn’t match other distances. I understand the three oh is meant to produce approx 4 moa at 100 and if so, it not accurate enough for me. I flicked mine for Swedish 6.5x55.

nah mate...I think we have all made this mistake...the first notch was aim at belt buckle ...deer cullers held below brisket its how sights were meant to be used... our resident author will be along soon hopefully and chime in...he did a speil about how these origonal battle sights are meant to be used some time back.....
now heathens like me took to back sight with V file and made a deep V in it....ruined its authenticness but worked to some degree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ingrid 51

My No 4 Mk 1* was shooting about 6” high at 100, as from memory they were/are meant to. I swapped my foresight for a +90 that brought the zero down to (near enough) 100. Trouble then was that ladder site calibrations didn’t match other distances. I understand the three oh is meant to produce approx 4 moa at 100 and if so, it not accurate enough for me. I flicked mine for Swedish 6.5x55.

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Yes. From what I’ve read and looking at the marking on the rear ramp it’s a 200 yd zero.

It was Dad’s, so it’s not going anywhere, it has to be usable.

B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

nah mate...I think we have all made this mistake...the first notch was aim at belt buckle ...deer cullers held below brisket its how sights were meant to be used... our resident author will be along soon hopefully and chime in...he did a speil about how these origonal battle sights are meant to be used some time back.....
now heathens like me took to back sight with V file and made a deep V in it....ruined its authenticness but worked to some degree.

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Yes, deepening the V was a consideration, but a bit rangi bro…..

I’ll see what’s like at 200 then reconsider.

B

I set mine at 600yds to get a 100m zero with cast 215gn boolits doing around 1500fps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shift14

Yes, deepening the V was a consideration, but a bit rangi bro…..

I’ll see what’s like at 200 then reconsider.

B

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Devcon on foresight could be the way to go rather than deep-notching rear sight. Consider building up the shoulders of front sight with Devon before making it taller. Once dry and hard, file to desired shape/height rather than butcher original steel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ingrid 51

Devcon on foresight could be the way to go rather than deep-notching rear sight. Consider building up the shoulders of front sight with Devon before making it taller. Once dry and hard, file to desired shape/height rather than butcher original steel.

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Those were my thoughts, though can’t see it being robust enough for hunting. Hence my thought of measuring total height from the base of the dovetail and building the blade up with weld, or brazing on a piece of fine rod for a bead on top of the blade, which is flat topped.

B

A low hold for open iron sights is less of a disadvantage because your sights then obscure less of the target.

40cm high is pushing it though.... Making the sight a bit taller with some Araldite (stronger, lead solder - just remove the bluing where you want the solder to stick to at the top of the post, heat to a sweat and apply a blob, file to desired shape) is a neat intervention that doesn't make any permanent change to a fine gun. These skinny money-strapped guys in the video paid a lot of taxes to manufacture it, so respect it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbElEqm1TQ

What ammo are you using? The old longtoms were sighted in with the older 215gr pills, not the mk7 174gr military ammo, my long lees shoot quite high with 1950s mk7 174 ammo.

Greetings @shift14,
Lee Enfield rifles are notorious for shooting different loads to vastly different poi. If the rifle is a No1 rather than an earlier Long Tom it would have been regulated for 174 grain spitzer flat base projectiles at 2,440 fps at 300 yards. You are a lot higher than this but the rifle seems to shoot reasonably well. If you handload reduced loads with heavy projectiles may bring the poi down but the rifle will probably need to be sighted in for a specific load. A picture of the rifle and some details of the ammo would help.
Regards Grandpamac.

@grangpamac, thanks for your reply.

Pictures as requested

Attachment 212526

Attachment 212527

Attachment 212528

B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shift14

@grangpamac, thanks for your reply.

Pictures as requested

Attachment 212526

Attachment 212527

Attachment 212528

B

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That is an old one with that rear sight. It would have originally been regulated for 215 grain projectiles at a little over 2,000 fps so it is not surprising that it shoots high. A higher front sight would be the best option or an adjustable aperture sight if one can be found (unlikely). You can calculate how much higher the sight needs to be easily enough or I can calculate it for you (I just need the distance between the front and rear sights). Then it is a matter of finding a suitable replacement foresight or even filing a new one out of a block of steel. A milling machine would be faster.
A rifle similar to yours would have been used in South Afrika or early in WW1 by NZ troops. Troops at Gallipoli had rifles sighted for Mk VI ammo with 215 grain projectiles but were only supplied with Mk VII ammo with 174 grain projectiles which shot high. Probably made FA difference due to the ranges involved in the fighting. Nice looking rifle, deserves to be taken hunting. Might be best to find something else for the boy and keep it yourself.
Regards Grandpamac.

@grandpamac, sage advice thankyou.

Too many memories for me to use it. The grandfather he never knew, probably isn’t the father I did.

He’ll look after it well, and has ample opportunity to use it down south on Canterbury porkers if not reds, instead of his Sako 300WSM.

When things dry out up here, I’ll get back to 200yds and measure the drop on the plate with this ammunition.

FYI I measure 16 5/8” from the back of the vee to the back of the front blade.

Attachment 212534

B

Greetings again,
The ratio from the sight radius to the range to target is 1:218 (0.420:91.4) so to drop the POI say 450mm on target requires raising the foresight by a little over 2 mm (450/218). Others might like to check this for you.
GPM.

I have been through this a few times with different .303s.

Your solutions are in order of preference and likely success (Apart from just finding the right sized taller front sight blade):

1. - File down the top of the sight base directly underneath the bottom of the hinged rear sight, so that it sits lower. Do this judiciously and test shoot it with the load you intend to use, a little goes a long way. Get it shooting three inches high at 100 yards.

2. - Build up the top of the front sight blade with solder, and then file it into shape. There is a calculation for how the front sight should be based on the distance between the front and rear sights and you can then judge how higher it should be. Its on the net if you goggle it, that will give you a rough idea how high, then file it down a bit when you test shoot.)*

3. You have to file the top of the rear sight down, and then deepen the V. (I do not recommend this one as you cant replace the rear sight, and if you ever take the rear stock off the rifle, it will shoot to a different place and may be eight inches low for example, and then you have a different problem.)

*Grandpa has just given you this in the post above I see.

@grandpamac and @JohnDuxbury.

Thanks for your input team. Much appreciated.

I’ll try a combination of what you suggested.

It seems that someone has had a crack at the rear sight method before me going by the marks on the base.

Attachment 212536

With regards the foresight. I have a Broad Arrow (issue)marked 0.060 blade, taller than that fitted. Problem is the dovetail is too small for the cutout in the ramp fitted. The ramp is marked thus :

Attachment 212537

No other markings on the ramp or blade.

So a combination of a smidgen off the rear base and solder on the front should see me right, provided the ammo used is a constant.

B

Also try some 150gr, they may cut the distance in half, then a bit here, a bit there...

JNT peep sight was on TM last week at $90, was not sold and may appear again. Problem solved for easy windage/elevation on these rifles.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shift14

@grandpamac and @JohnDuxbury.

Thanks for your input team. Much appreciated.

I’ll try a combination of what you suggested.

It seems that someone has had a crack at the rear sight method before me going by the marks on the base.

Attachment 212536

With regards the foresight. I have a Broad Arrow (issue)marked 0.060 blade, taller than that fitted. Problem is the dovetail is too small for the cutout in the ramp fitted. The ramp is marked thus :

Attachment 212537

No other markings on the ramp or blade.

So a combination of a smidgen off the rear base and solder on the front should see me right, provided the ammo used is a constant.

B

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"Provided the ammo used is constant". You nailed the biggest problem right there. Buying a box here and a box there will probably give you trouble. Handloading can get over most of the problems but not the slap it together kind. I will put some notes together and post them tomorrow.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shift14

@grandpamac and @JohnDuxbury.

Thanks for your input team. Much appreciated.

I’ll try a combination of what you suggested.

It seems that someone has had a crack at the rear sight method before me going by the marks on the base.

Attachment 212536

With regards the foresight. I have a Broad Arrow (issue)marked 0.060 blade, taller than that fitted. Problem is the dovetail is too small for the cutout in the ramp fitted. The ramp is marked thus :

Attachment 212537

No other markings on the ramp or blade.

So a combination of a smidgen off the rear base and solder on the front should see me right, provided the ammo used is a constant.

B

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I note your MLE barrel is stamped 'HV' behind the sight, meaning it got sighted in for .303 Mk VII use.

@shift14

Just a thought, you do know you can raise the rear sight ramp and there are TWO notches to choose between then? The lower notch is for short range and may be what you need. A pain to have to raise the ladder out of the way, but hey.

Attachment 212547

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cordite

@shift14

Just a thought, you do know you can raise the rear sight ramp and there are TWO notches to choose between then? The lower notch is for short range and may be what you need. A pain to have to raise the ladder out of the way, but hey.

Attachment 212547

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Yeah nah. Tried that. No good.

Attachment 212551

B

that muzzle looks to have been docked at some point in time.
keep playing with rear sight...Cordite might be onto something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

that muzzle looks to have been docked at some point in time.
keep playing with rear sight...Cordite might be onto something.

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I’ve assumed all along the barrel has been shortened.

Look at my picture, physically impossible to use the ‘second notch’, at least on my rifle., and when put to shoulder, the back end of the bolt obscures everything.

B

I seem to recall..somewhere in the mists of time...one kiwi whos name is lost to me...had a coin on rear of bolt with hole drilled through it as an aperture...... dont give up on the old gal..there will be a way.
master Duxbury seems to have a way of getting opens to work better than most....between you it will get sorted.

Peep sight would be way better..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shift14

Yeah nah. Tried that. No good.

Attachment 212551

B

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Hi @shift14,
Hmm, went and dug mine out of the safe. Yep. As you found. My slider goes to 200, but the notch bottoms out when you get down to 250yd mark as in the picture. These evil tools were indeed made for two-legged deer, aim for the gut and you'd be right.

I had it at the range, it shot at point of aim at 100m, with a dinner plate target and 6 o clock hold off my elbows. No tumblers, so I thought it worth it to thoroughly clean the barrel since. Here's hoping.

The rear diopter sight is a really good idea, think it's what we both need. But you'd still need to build that front post up unless you remove the open rear sight.

Attachment 212571

Greetings again,
Some notes on loading for the .303.
From my experience quite small changes in loads can result in large differences in point of impact with lower velocity loads shooting considerably lower so a constant supply of ammo is needed before sights can be adjusted. Handloading the .303 is not for the faint hearted. Chambers are often roomy and full length sizing the cases with the die set down hard on the shell holder can result in case head separations as early as the third firing. This can be got around by neck sizing using loads around the start loads in the Hodgdon data. Cases may still need to be full length sized and trimmed if they are from once fired factory ammo but the full length sizing should be just enough to allow them to chamber freely. Many .303 rifles have long throats due to erosion from the hot burning Cordite in the military ammo. My experience is that these shoot best with round nose projectiles of 174 or 180 grains. Load data for the .303 varies widely but I have found that the Hodgden data is reasonably close to results from my two .303 rifles, both with excellent bores. My current load is 32 grains of AR2206H behind the 174 grain round nose Hornady projectile. This load chronographs around 2,050 fps and is accurate. At some point I will test 34 grains which should deliver around 2,150 fps. Either would be more than adequate for most hunting that would be done with an iron sighted rifle.
Regards Grandpamac.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Greetings again,
Some notes on loading for the .303.
From my experience quite small changes in loads can result in large differences in point of impact with lower velocity loads shooting considerably lower so a constant supply of ammo is needed before sights can be adjusted. Handloading the .303 is not for the faint hearted. Chambers are often roomy and full length sizing the cases with the die set down hard on the shell holder can result in case head separations as early as the third firing. This can be got around by neck sizing using loads around the start loads in the Hodgdon data. Cases may still need to be full length sized and trimmed if they are from once fired factory ammo but the full length sizing should be just enough to allow them to chamber freely. Many .303 rifles have long throats due to erosion from the hot burning Cordite in the military ammo. My experience is that these shoot best with round nose projectiles of 174 or 180 grains. Load data for the .303 varies widely but I have found that the Hodgden data is reasonably close to results from my two .303 rifles, both with excellent bores. My current load is 32 grains of AR2206H behind the 174 grain round nose Hornady projectile. This load chronographs around 2,050 fps and is accurate. At some point I will test 34 grains which should deliver around 2,150 fps. Either would be more than adequate for most hunting that would be done with an iron sighted rifle.
Regards Grandpamac.

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Thank you Sir.

I have no intention of reloading for this ‘gem’., and perhaps introducing more variables.

4-5 boxes of the ammunition pictured will suffice.

For a 200 zero I’ll do the solder on the foresight method, build up at least 2mm and take some fine cut files out with me later this summer, once I’m over weddings in Ireland.

I wish 787’s were this easy hahahaha.

B

Quote:

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Originally Posted by shift14

Thank you Sir.

I have no intention of reloading for this ‘gem’., and perhaps introducing more variables.

4-5 boxes of the ammunition pictured will suffice.

For a 200 zero I’ll do the solder on the foresight method, build up at least 2mm and take some fine cut files out with me later this summer, once I’m over weddings in Ireland.

I wish 787’s were this easy hahahaha.

B

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Buying several boxes of the same ammo is a great option for ensuring supply and probably cheaper in the long run, certainly less trouble.
All the best and please keep us informed on progress.
GPM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grandpamac

Buying several boxes of the same ammo is a great option for ensuring supply and probably cheaper in the long run, certainly less trouble.
All the best and please keep us informed on progress.
GPM.

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Roger will do @grandpamac. I really appreciate your help. I thought I was on the right track, thinking I needed a taller front sight, it wasn’t until I started this thread that some possible solutions came to mind.

Merry Xmas and all the best to you and all those who chimed in.

B