Thread: Downhill shot

Originally Posted by dannyb

Maybe it was just a bad shot, bad load etc etc, it happens. Test rifle on range if all good don't loose any sleep over it.

Two bad shots hitting same point ? Perhaps rangefinder pinged on something closer than the deer, but it look like 3 hundy. Anyway, always interesting to get others inputs and learn

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

Two bad shots hitting same point ? Perhaps rangefinder pinged on something closer than the deer, but it look like 3 hundy. Anyway, always interesting to get others inputs and learn

Any of the above are possible, check zero on paper and if all good be forever happy

Originally Posted by JT_NZ

From Kestrel 5700 AB

Baseline data
Gun
MV	2500fps
BC G1	0.646
BW	140gr
BD	0.264 in
ZR	100m
BH	2.00 in
Twist	1:8.00 in R
Enviro
Wind	0.00 MPH
Lat	-40 degrees
Temp	20 Deg Cel
SP	29.92 inHg
RH	60%
D/A	763ft

Distance (m)	0 Degrees Mil Hold	Hold in cm	+30 degrees Mil Hold	Hold in cm	-30 degrees Mil Hold	Hold in cm
100	0.00	0	-0.12	-1	-0.12	-1
200	0.70	14	0.45	9	0.45	9
300	1.65	50	1.27	38	1.26	38
400	2.73	109	2.21	88	2.19	88
500	3.94	197	3.26	163	3.22	161
600	5.27	316	4.42	265	4.36	262
700	6.74	472	5.70	399	5.62	393

The slight difference you see here in predicted holds between uphill and downhill is primarily a result of the Kestrel AB engine taking into account the difference in air density across the predicted flight path of the projectile. This is only a factor in extreme situations. As mentioned by others, for 95% of NZ hunting situations, basic horizontal range should be fine.

Note: you still need to account for aerodynamic jump. This and other factors such as incorrect range measurement, incorrect angle measurement, parallax, etc. could explain some of the observations where there has been a vertical delta between expected fall of shot and actual fall of shot. Some of these errors may not be the fault of the firer. For example, I have had three different LRF Binos in the mountains at one time when hunting with a party, and whilst they all provided similar distance to target, some had significant differences in measured inclination angle.

Originally Posted by tibo

Sure, I used the same date in Ballistic AE and Hornady 4dof:

BC 0.646 (Hornady 6.5mm 140gr ELDM
2500fps
100m zero
sight height 2"
Barrel twist 1:8

atitude 0
temp 20degc
humidity 60
pressure 1013.31
wind speed 0

@tibo , I dont know what the intended quarry is but with a low powered cartridge as above the effective range wont be too far on a Red Stag.
We need 1500 foot pounds energy and an impact velocity over 2200 fps as a safe minimum for an adult stag.
It was Col Townsend Whelan that came up with the 1000 fp, minimum but that was for Whitetail with heavy slow big cals around 1930

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@tibo , I dont know what the intended quarry is but with a low powered cartridge as above the effective range wont be too far on a Red Stag.
We need 1500 foot pounds energy and an impact velocity over 2200 fps as a safe minimum for an adult stag.
It was Col Townsend Whelan that came up with the 1000 fp, minimum but that was for Whitetail with heavy slow big cals around 1930

1500lbs? I have been reading 1200lbs and 1900fps a few time. I was planning to get a 300wsm at some stage it would be more suitable then

Originally Posted by Magnetite

@tibo page 28 explains why there is a difference: Hornady 4dof technical document. I haven't confirmed if 4dof is more accurate. Also if you're using the Improved Rifleman's Rule (the cosine of the drop) a 100m zero is best.

Good find @Magnetite, would be interesting to take such a shot to compare

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

@tibo , I dont know what the intended quarry is but with a low powered cartridge as above the effective range wont be too far on a Red Stag.
We need 1500 foot pounds energy and an impact velocity over 2200 fps as a safe minimum for an adult stag.
It was Col Townsend Whelan that came up with the 1000 fp, minimum but that was for Whitetail with heavy slow big cals around 1930

Originally Posted by tibo

1500lbs? I have been reading 1200lbs and 1900fps a few time. I was planning to get a 300wsm at some stage it would be more suitable then

I'm really not going to go into this any more than there is no hard and fast rule, a lot of it depends on bullet type and construction as well as velocity and shot placment, foot pounds etc etc.
Moa you certainly wont go wrong with those figures but they are not set in stone depending on other parameters.
I will not be drawn further on this other than to say "do your own research before experimenting on animals" (that last comment is not directed at anyone just my personal opinion)

I do not advocate taking shots at ranges where bullet performance is Marginal, more than enough is always going to be better than just enough

Moa Hunter. Using your figure of 1200 ft/pounds my 223 supposedly no good past 35 meters approximately. I’ll have to disagree on that one. 68 deer shot in last 10 months, ranges out to 200 meters, they all dropped on the ground.

Some use 1800fps to get reliable expansion rather than energy.

Originally Posted by woods223

Moa Hunter. Using your figure of 1200 ft/pounds my 223 supposedly no good past 35 meters approximately. I’ll have to disagree on that one. 68 deer shot in last 10 months, ranges out to 200 meters, they all dropped on the ground.

My figure was actually 1500fp not 1200fp (and a minimum impact velocity of 2200 fps) for a Red Stag. This advice is from professional hunting guides in nz and it is the LEGAL minimum in Germany: 'for Roe deer: minimum impact energy more than 1000 J at 100 m.
For other ungulates: minimum calibre 6,5 mm, minimum impact energy more than
2000 J at 100 m.
So if the legal minimum is 1500 fp in a european country from where our deer came from (via england) should we not take notice of this ?

From Hungary:Calibre restrictions do not apply, and semi-automatic/repeating shotguns are permitted.
- ROE DEER Minimum striking energy at 100m: over 1000 J
- OTHER LARGE GAME Minimum striking energy at 100m: over 2500 J

the motther country can keep its rules n regulations,the ycan shove them where the sun doesnt shine..as long as the kill is clean and ethically done quickly I dont give a flying fook what a person uses.....hell I would bring back shooting waterfowl on the water....punt gun too...if you want one big bang to reach your bag limit,dont kill anything other than target species and utilise all the game..well so be it.

This energy/velocity debate is endless… Shot placement and selecting a bullet with good expansion seems more important to me.
I’d rather hit the vitals at 1000lbs or even less than flinch and miss the vital shooting a rifle that can deliver 1500lbs+. A stag with a bullet in the lung at 1000lbs will still die pretty fast from hermorragie.
I have been delaying purchasing a 300WSM for this very reason it has twice the recoil of the creedmoor.

Originally Posted by tibo

This energy/velocity debate is endless… Shot placement and selecting a bullet with good expansion seems more important to me.
I’d rather hit the vitals at 1000lbs or even less than flinch and miss the vital shooting a rifle that can deliver 1500lbs+. A stag with a bullet in the lung at 1000lbs will still die pretty fast from hermorragie.
I have been delaying purchasing a 300WSM for this very reason it has twice the recoil of the creedmoor.

The debate is not endless in Europe. There are minimum energy figures for a reason - humane kill. I have watched vids posted on this forum where the shooter or spotter claims a miss and I have seen a hit, but because of the low impact energy and velocity the animal runs off wounded.
A friend who is an exceptional field shot ( 300 mtr standing shots no issue) as well as having been a professional guide and helicopter shooter, told me that he had started out using a 270 with 150 gr reloads cranked up for stags in the roar but it did not have enough power to flatten them, so he moved up to a 7mm rem mag which can flatten them.
I think we should bear in mind that a stag that was easy to kill in late Jan - early Feb is not the same deer at this time of year. It needs a lot more to penetrate his swollen toughened neck and shoulders

I think shot placement is more important within reason of energy/velocity

I think that this has been argued back and forth as far as it needs, you lot might just have to agree to disagree
Do what works, as previously mentioned Moa I'm sure if you stick to your limits you will be fine, but not all bullets are equal and some perform better at high impact velocities like your favored accubonds, copper types like barnes, sako blade and hornandy cx, but some will also penetrate perform at lower velocities like eldm's, eldx, game changers etc etc, some of us use heavier projectiles to make up for lower impact velocities, and more still use lighter harder pills to keep impact velocity high with lighter calibers. All of these used within the right parameters work, even on gigantic horney mammoth stags.