Thread: Downhill shot

Originally Posted by dannyb

I think that this has been argued back and forth as far as it needs, you lot might just have to agree to disagree
Do what works, as previously mentioned Moa I'm sure if you stick to your limits you will be fine, but not all bullets are equal and some perform better at high impact velocities like your favored accubonds, copper types like barnes, sako blade and hornandy cx, but some will also penetrate perform at lower velocities like eldm's, eldx, game changers etc etc, some of us use heavier projectiles to make up for lower impact velocities, and more still use lighter harder pills to keep impact velocity high with lighter calibers. All of these used within the right parameters work, even on gigantic horney mammoth stags.

Surely you’re not going to shut down a thread on this? Let them debate, well within the rules

Originally Posted by dannyb

I think that this has been argued back and forth as far as it needs, you lot might just have to agree to disagree
Do what works, as previously mentioned Moa I'm sure if you stick to your limits you will be fine, but not all bullets are equal and some perform better at high impact velocities like your favored accubonds, copper types like barnes, sako blade and hornandy cx, but some will also penetrate perform at lower velocities like eldm's, eldx, game changers etc etc, some of us use heavier projectiles to make up for lower impact velocities, and more still use lighter harder pills to keep impact velocity high with lighter calibers. All of these used within the right parameters work, even on gigantic horney mammoth stags.

I am only interested in humane ethical kills. In post #52 the following was written: 'I'm really not going to go into this any more than there is no hard and fast rule,'.
Now while I totally agree that projectiles need matched to the job, it cannot be said that 'there are no rules' when the countries in which Red Deer are native to, have long established humane based rules. This is true of many other game animals across the world.
Ignoring these well established minimums is to set ones self up for failure and disappointment imo. Most recreational hunters in NZ are not good enough hunters to get close and shoot a stag in the head or neck the way the professional meat hunters could and should use enough gun to match their own ability.
Long range shooting needs matched with sufficient striking energy

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I am only interested in humane ethical kills. In post #52 the following was written: 'I'm really not going to go into this any more than there is no hard and fast rule,'.
Now while I totally agree that projectiles need matched to the job, it cannot be said that 'there are no rules' when the countries in which Red Deer are native to, have long established humane based rules. This is true of many other game animals across the world.
Ignoring these well established minimums is to set ones self up for failure and disappointment imo. Most recreational hunters in NZ are not good enough hunters to get close and shoot a stag in the head or neck the way the professional meat hunters could and should use enough gun to match their own ability.
Long range shooting needs matched with sufficient striking energy

Just a precision in Germany the law is to use a rifle that develop 2,000 Joules (1,475 ft/lbs) of energy at 100 meters to legally hunt red stag, there is no mention of 2,000 Joules (1,475 ft/lbs) of energy on target.

Originally Posted by Gibo

Surely you’re not going to shut down a thread on this? Let them debate, well within the rules

Never said I was going to shut it down I was merely suggesting that just maybe some people just will not agree and both had made there cases and neither was swayed. Argue away if that's what turns you on and you can do it civilly without resorting to personal attacks and childish name calling

Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I am only interested in humane ethical kills. In post #52 the following was written: 'I'm really not going to go into this any more than there is no hard and fast rule,'.
Now while I totally agree that projectiles need matched to the job, it cannot be said that 'there are no rules' when the countries in which Red Deer are native to, have long established humane based rules. This is true of many other game animals across the world.
Ignoring these well established minimums is to set ones self up for failure and disappointment imo. Most recreational hunters in NZ are not good enough hunters to get close and shoot a stag in the head or neck the way the professional meat hunters could and should use enough gun to match their own ability.
Long range shooting needs matched with sufficient striking energy

Moa in NZ there are no "rules" other than you must use 223 or larger on DOC land. The "rules" you speak of are for hunting in Europe as you have stated many times, this is NZ not Europe.
I'm not arguing that your European "rules" are a bad view point and certainly they would see most rutting red stags killed with little fuss, however there are many many many ways to kill a stag without your 2000fps and 1500ft/lbs (or there abouts) personal and European standard.
Also noone was debating what "most hunters in NZ" where or where not capable of as far as their shooting prowess is concerned.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, I do believe that having more than enough horsepower is a good thing for rutting stags, but in NZ it is not a "rule" nor is it a magic number that means any stags shot outside of these figures will be either maimed or the bullets will simply bounce off.
As I have also previously said "do your own homework, do what works, don't experiment on animals"
Use the right projectile for the right job and stick to shooting animals at ranges within your skill set/shooting ability.
I'm done arguing I'm happy with my personal view, if the rest of you wish to go on by all means have at it, I can only repeat the same thing so many times before it becomes boring and I have more productive things to do with my time.

Ok back to the subject. If someone has access to a place where it is possible to shoot long range downhill and is keen to experiment a bit I would be keen to compare corrections given by Hornady 4DOF and Ballistic AE, other app with real shot. I understand TBR does the job but I’m curious… Hornady guys spent time and money to came up with a special recipe to comput angle I would expect they verified their science in the field.
About TBR given by rangefinder, it is interesting to read some brand like Leupold calculate TBR using algorithms more complexe than the cosine of the angle x LOS.

Originally Posted by dannyb

Never said I was going to shut it down I was merely suggesting that just maybe some people just will not agree and both had made there cases and neither was swayed. Argue away if that's what turns you on and you can do it civilly without resorting to personal attacks and childish name calling



Moa in NZ there are no "rules" other than you must use 223 or larger on DOC land. The "rules" you speak of are for hunting in Europe as you have stated many times, this is NZ not Europe.
I'm not arguing that your European "rules" are a bad view point and certainly they would see most rutting red stags killed with little fuss, however there are many many many ways to kill a stag without your 2000fps and 1500ft/lbs (or there abouts) personal and European standard.
Also noone was debating what "most hunters in NZ" where or where not capable of as far as their shooting prowess is concerned.
I have said it before and I'll say it again, I do believe that having more than enough horsepower is a good thing for rutting stags, but in NZ it is not a "rule" nor is it a magic number that means any stags shot outside of these figures will be either maimed or the bullets will simply bounce off.
As I have also previously said "do your own homework, do what works, don't experiment on animals"
Use the right projectile for the right job and stick to shooting animals at ranges within your skill set/shooting ability.
I'm done arguing I'm happy with my personal view, if the rest of you wish to go on by all means have at it, I can only repeat the same thing so many times before it becomes boring and I have more productive things to do with my time.

Whilst there are no rules as you state, we do see over and over and over members quoting 1000 fp of energy at X distance being a magic number to kill a deer. This 1000 fp is an American number for Whitetail being applied here to Red Deer.
In Tibo's post, he is correct that the minimum energy is at 100 mtrs, but most deer are shot inside this distance in the forests and this is the minimum not the desired energy

In reference to my earlier post regarding 223 on deer. No photos sorry, don’t bother with them. This morning shot one 8 point stag, typical scrubby Marlborough north-bank animal, at around fifty meters. Shot top of neck/base of skull, dropped like a sack of spuds. About an hour later mate using 308 shot one in neck at about thirty meters. Shot missed bone but took out throat. Took about 30 minutes to find the bugga, made a bit of ground before he decided he was dead. As has been pointed out previously energy isn’t everything, you still got to hit in the right place. Getting back to OP, on longer shots I use StrelokPro. After validation it seems to work near enough for me and it’s easy to use. Am going to try running Ballistic AE alongside to see how they compare, uses JBM calculator so should be good. Tried Hornady app but yea/na, not on phone anymore.