Yes. Looking at groups instead of the first shots may make you distrust your fine hunting rifle.
Problem is, you don't kill paper targets, they stay up, so at a shooting range you make groups.
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I have a Brno 243 that has a similar contact point between barrel and fore end, and off centre too. I have sanded the barrel channel so that the contact point is more centred. The rifle shoots okay but I'm sure it can do better. It has pillars between the action and bottom metal, but the pillars are loose and not fixed in the stock. I bought an Acriglass kit and plan to have a go at bedding the action (probably only at front and rear), then sanding out the contact point to float the barrel. I have the same rifle in 308 in a fibreglass stock and it shoots very well, so I'm hoping the 243 will be just as good, as long as I don't stuff up the bedding job!
I made some pillars for my savage 243 and jb,welded them into the stock it works well
ok looking at that it was pretty much as came from factory...THEY ARE HOT GLUE GUN BEDDED IN FACTORY......FFS.....
eg a blob of soft glue bunged in place and screwed up n shipped out.
barrel channel relief easy with a course half round file...see Gibo you arent the only rough one.
mine got the full rebed third time around...first time was hot glue..that lasted 5 years then araldite...lasted 10 years till I took it apart and got all embarrassed by how rough it was so then bought Nathan Fosters kit and did it properly...did the same for my Zstava .308...the zastava .223 still in hot glue 20 years and still looks/preforms fine.
sounds like the job has been done...now we wait for next range report.
If your barrel is a 1 in 10 twist the chances of it being accurate with 100 gn boat tails is not good . trying a lighter projectile would be a better test ,however the beding does not look flash either so giving it a bedding job isn't a bad idea .
Realy one swallow does not a summer make i.e it pays to try changing the simplist thing to see if it makes a change before you throw the baby out with the bath water .
Also Danny when you do sort a load after the bedding, my experience in 243's is I have never had one that shoots as tight with 100gr as they both did with the 85/87gr, I also used a 90 or 95gr [can't quite remember] targex that shot well, for memory the Hornady 87gr soft/spire point was the best in both rifles , not sure if they make it anymore though, there is bound to be an equivalent or tipped similar
Just my experience over two different rifles, Browning Abolt and Ruger MK11, it may have no bearing here.
I was looking at loading 90g eldx however, I'm beginning to wonder if a lighter flat base projectile might be better.
Am I trying to make it do something it's not well suited for ? I'm probably unlikely to shoot it out past 300yds so do I need a super flash hi bc projectile ????
I think it was @Flyblown that suggested sierra hpbt 87g ????
This will do it
https://www.gunworks.co.nz/shop/item...ady-soft-point
If they are the same Hornady 87gr SP I use they are actually varmint bullets - but I have them recorded as code 2240 in my spreadsheet rather than 2440 so need to check the box out in the shed, might be a typo on my part or might be a different bullet.
Personally I refuse to use varmint or match bullets on deer, and load Sierra 1530 (85gr gameking hpbt) and 1540 (100gr Prohunter sp flatbase) in my 243 for deer loads
Ive setteled on game kings in mine,they shoot mean as
@Micky Duck sorry about that - I must have been feeling grumpy. I didn't know any manufacturer literally used hot glue as bedding. But I guess the Forbes is supposed to be glued in place somehow. Perhaps its not soft as hot glue sticks like I get from the warehourse.
@Cordite , I think people really need to be able to shoot 3 shot groups, if not 5 at a string, to be able to sight in their rifle.
Note that in quality assurance terminology, precision is how close shots are to each other ie group size.
Accuracy is how close shots are to the intended point of impact, which determines how effective you are hitting and killing animals. Quite large groups like 2-3" at 100yd can be completely OK. It's accuracy you need.
To get good accuracy, you need to be able to sight in well and have some idea of trajectory but most importantly, not have a wandering zero from one day to the next. First shot of the day is what you need.
I'll bet your problems disappear now you've got it bedded.
Agree. All I am saying is, EACH shot in your group of five would have to be a "first shot", i.e. from a COLD gun. Sighting in this way takes more time, to allow for more complete cooling between shots, and one might even take the time to boresnake the barrel in between also ... but this will produce a more relevant group for hunting purposes. You only want a hunting rifle to be sighted in for where its first, "cold" shot will go.
https://www.gunworks.co.nz/shop/item...-gameking-1530
thinking these might do the job and be more suited to the type of shooting I do and better suited to the rifle too.
use the same target over 3 sessions at range....even 3 shot groups then become 9 LOL.
He heh, yes, who would not want to shoot a few more than three once you've driven all the way up the hill to the range and then walked 10mins including through a stream to get there (in the case of the Dunedin NZDA range). Therein lies the trouble. You don't go to the range to do sighters, you go there for a shooting session and forget that it's only the first 2-3 that are sighters and the rest are just for fun and not to get worried over.
Maybe, bringing a second heavy barrel rifle for the sustained shooting bit is the answer here.
By the way @dannyb, for free floating, I looked at some of Peter Laidler's postings elsewhere on stocking the Lee Enfield No 4. I worked out that you can check the free floating is within that spec by being able to pass at least 5 layers of 80GSM paper between barrel and stock (=standard A4 printer paper), but that's only once the receiver is bedded.
Regarding bullets for hunting use in the .243 Win. Settle in with a mug of something nice and hot, as this is another post-op essay.
Its up to the shooter to find something that works. We can make suggestions all day long, and most will never be tried. Some will not shoot that well and others that we don’t mention at all might be perfect!
A lot of you reading this will know all of it already so all good. But for those of you that don’t.... There’s always been a lot of confusion about “100gr” bullets in the 1:10” twist .243 Winchester rifle.
As we know, it is not the weight of the bullet that affects stability, the length is the primary factor that affects stability, the weight is a secondary factor.
A bullet is regarded as stable above a Miller value of 1.3, but the military threshold is 1.5 to ensure downrange accuracy. The Miller factor should be considered in conjunction with the bullet ballistic coefficient.
A lot of the .243 stability confusion comes from the direct translation of 100gr to mean a longer bullet like the Sierra GameKing (1560). This bullet is a boat tailed bullet at 1.078” in length. This bullet is "technically" stable, with a Miller factor of around 1.35. They actually group pretty well in my Howa at 100m.
The one I use is the sSierra ProHunter (1540), which is the 100gr flat base bullet, length 1.041” and Miller factor of 1.5. This bullet has been outstanding for me and my wife, its killing capabilities are excellent due to its near perfect design and construction (which is identical to the GameKing with the exception of the tail).
So if you were in the military you would be required to select the ProHunter over the GameKing as the stability factor meets their accuracy threshold. I find that in largely meaningless 100m accuracy tests with my Howa, that the 100gr ProHunter is only marginally more accurate than the 100m GameKing.
The other bullet which is commonly used, and also regarded as an excellent killer of deer, is the Sierra GameKing 85gr hollow point boat tail (1530). Being shorter still (0.934”) it had a Miller stability factor of >1.75.
What I have found over many years is that the relatively low BC ProHunter flies extremely well out to about 350m, whereupon velocity starts to drop and windage becomes more of an issue. I’ve got lots of records here of the 300m drop tests I’ve done with the ProHunter for every batch of reloads, with accuracy typically measured in the 0.6-0.7MOA range at that distance.
Interestingly the higher BC 100gr GameKing, which one would expect to fly better at longer range then its flat base sibling due to the higher BC, actually does quite a lot worse at 300m. I had a look through some of my load notes last night, and photos from the target boards, and I cannot find a 300 meter group that is better than 1.5MOA. This I put down to its marginal stability, which trumps the ballistic coefficient downrange.
So in my rifle at least (and its predecessor, a Tikka M595, and before that a CZ ZKK), the question of stability and BC combined must translate to downrange accuracy, which is what is important to me, because typically I am shooting deer in the 150-250m+ range and often up to a little over 300m, this due to terrain constraints.
Now for the interesting part. The lighter 85gr GameKing I have found to be much more fickle with downrange accuracy, despite it having a perfectly acceptable Miller stability factor. Now the caveat to that statement is of course that is in my rifle, with my shooting skills and the conditions in which I typically shoot. Which I might add is rarely in the strong wind conditions, and if it is windy then I will go to a lot of effort to shoot either with or straight into the wind.
My load notes show acceptable 100 and 200 meter accuracy for the 85gr HPBT, but unacceptable 300m accuracy, there is a big drop off in accuracy around ~250 m. What I think is happening is that the slight drop in weight and significantly lower BC (compared to the 100gr bullets) is really counting against this bullet downrange. As a short range killer it is right up there with the very best but I won't use it for my application.
So I come back to the statement earlier about the “largely meaningless 100m accuracy tests”. Obviously we like to test our loads at this range, often for convenience, but I really do think it is a massive mistake for field hunters to only test their loads' accuracy at this range. I also think the default value of 100m for a zero is often a mistake, once you have established a velocity it is a really interesting exercise to look at the trajectory of your round because sometimes picking a 50m or 150m zero or whatever makes a lot more sense.
Just because a certain bullet performs well at 100m does not always translate to downrange performance. All three of the Sierra bullets discussed here are proven effective killers, timeless bullet designs originating from the 1960s. Obviously the killing capability is driven by the shooters ability to put the bullet in the correct place, something which all too frequently is overlooked.
The Sierra designs, being frangible bullets, are extremely effective in spreading a cloud of fragments in quite a wide radius around the point of impact. This is why despite 6mm being a relatively small calibre for the size of target animal we're talking about, they have always punched about their weight. This is also the reason why I am so beflummoxed and a bit concerned about the change in design with the Sierra GameChanger, early reports are saying quite clearly is too hard and highly likely to punch through with a narrow wound channel.
Obviously I've only been talking about Sierra bullets here and I could go on and on about Hornady too. I told @dannyb the other day that I grew up shooting Speer 105gr round nose bullets at roe and fallow deer, man were they effective. But even though it was a long time ago I cannot remember a shot that would have been longer than 120m or so, small fields, hedgerows, copses etc.
So at the end of this long waffle what I would like to say is do test bullets your thoroughly. Don't just be guided by the group size at 100m. And in 6mm make sure that your bullet choice is a proven design that combines fragmentation with enough retained weight to penetrate to the opposite side, or exit.
All of this is shooting 101 but over the years I have been asked most of these questions rather a lot of times by blokes starting out, or new to the cartridge, maybe it will help someone make an informed decision. The common and understandable perception that the 80-90gr bullets shooter better in the .243 Win might not translate to success as the shooter starts to stretch things out a little bit.
The other topic to talk about is the reputation of the .243 Win as a meat destroyer. Maybe later on I'll post some ideas about how to avoid this as it is really rather straightforward.
The reason the .243 performs better (accuracy wise) with the lighter bullets is because it was designed for shooting rabbit-sized groundhogs out to 300 metres or so, not for deer shooting. The 100 grain (CAC even loaded 105 grain which were a bloody disaster) load was added as an afterthought. I had a .243 BSA Majestic in 1967 when I was working at West Arm on the Manapouri power project. I owned it about two weeks before I sold it and got my father to throw my old sporterised .30/06 M1 Garand on the Road Services bus to me. With the .243 I shot three deer (all chest shots) in a week at ranges less than 100 metres and never found one as the blood trails never went more than a few metres. That problem went away instantly with the .30/06, the caliber I still use. On reflection, I suspect the poor .243 performance may have been attributable to the 100 grain steel jacketed Norma tri-clad ammo I was using, not giving enough expansion. One of my old hunting mates uses nothing but a BSA Majestic .243 (I rebarrelled it twice over 25 years) and has shot an awful lot of animals with it, although I have witnessed him having similar experiences that I had with mine.
I used a 243 late 80s early 90s meat shooting. As did another mate of mine.
We both had a horror run with them using multiple projectiles. Both rifles shot like demons tho. We were to young and dumb to think it was anything to do with our choices.
I do think projectiles have got better in time and know some guys now, doing well with a 243.
I will however, always loath them and the 270 and doubt I will ever change.
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Funny how the last three posters, me and @gundoc and @R93, with probably over 100 years combined experience, can have wildly divergent perspectives!
That's always been the case with the 243 Winchester. It divides opinion probably more than any other cartridge. Always has done, always will. Absolutely no point trying to score a win over someone with an alternative point of view because feelings and opinions are so deeply entrenched.
The whole lighter / heavier bullet debate of course would get turned on its head by someone like @rossi.45 because I'm pretty sure he is using 80-something grain bullets to heat guns at over 1000 yards!
I think you will find thats the case with most calibers we all have our favourites and have had good and bad runs with different cals
For what it’s worth given that my rifle needs a bedding and floating job, and I’m still developing my loads, last time I went to the range the 100gr Sierra 1540 had a better group than the 85gr Sierra 1530 and 87gr Hornady 2440.
I couldn’t even get a group with the 103gr eld-x, but it is about 1.25 inches long compared to the 1540 at 1.04, and the 1530 at around 0.97 if I recall correctly.
Pulled the action out after letting it set for 24hrs
Tidied up a few dags and releived the front of the barrel channel definitely fully free floated now.
Didn't nip it up super tight as the bedding compound needs 48 hours to fully cure and reach optimum hardness.
Hope this fixes it and doesn't create a whole new can of worms...... :D
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I would relieve that king screw hole if you haven't done so already. I usually relieve the front of the lug slot as well but that's personal pref.
If it doesn't shoot you can get the tang bedded as well. An easy way to check is run a DTI on the tang and undo the tang screw slowly. If you get over 10-20 thou of lift you're flexing the action and that could cause accuracy issues.
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The tang is bedded as well just wasn't much to see as there is only a very small area so I didn't bother with a pic,
Yup need to releive the "king screw"
Finished off with some true oil to seal where I sanded the barrel channel
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Also a pic of the tang bedding
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IF your bolt is now dificult to close...check the screw hasnt now come into the lug hole...simple to file a wee tad off end if it is. everytime I see photos of that rifle it comfirms its been looked after or had a much gentler life than mine.
Well success, put 4 rounds fon the range today easily half MOA
very very pleased. ...didn't even have to adjust the scope.
No pics as was in a hurry to go for a hunt, hope to put some more rounds down it tomorrow.
Shit it feeds effortlessly I was standing holding it with the bolt open, leand forward and the bold slid shut and chambered a round :pacman:
Just with gravity shit that's slick
Nice, I rode past as you were sighting in, glad it is working well. Hope you got some hunting in before the rain/drizzle hit.
great result.enjoy it.
Excellent.
Pre 64 m70 in 270win... now thats a rifle. The day I find a mint one I will be a very happy man
This will also suffice:
Jack O’Connor Model 70 Tribute Rifle — A .270 Win of Course « Daily Bulletin
Sounds like a good result , I would still try those 90gr ELD X bullets they should be good all rounders. When they come available I will try some in my 243.