The Forgiving Rifle

A rifle should shoot well from a variety of positions, maintaining same point of impact despite differences in technique from shot to shot.

The concept of the "forgiving bow" is well known in archery but I haven't seen it applied in rifle shooting.

I have a springer air rifle, very expensive and top of the range. I wouldn't like to admit its less than accurate but I just can't shoot consistently well with it. On the other hand, I have a 7mmo8 which shoots to the same zero from sandbag, bench, prone on a front rest or a bipod. Whether I'm prone unsupported, draped over a rock or backpack, sitting rested across a branch, or waving around standing at a post, if the cross hair is on the target when it fires, the bullet will hit it. How do you design a gun like that ?

A couple of ideas I've thought of are:
Stock design for good recoil. I have no idea what geometry is needed for this.
Good cheek weld for eye position to scope. Also, parallax adjustment in the scope.
General stock fit to the individual shooter.
Heavy weight. I'm not sure if this is essential or not. Related is moment of inertia; That airgun weighs over 4kg but its short and has no barrel to speak of.
Bedding ? Is there something that makes it stable whether the stock is held tight or free recoil or stressed by a bipod ? Would ali pillar/frame or carbon fibre be better than bare wood or plastic ?

with your springer hold the forend really firmly and your results will improove....well thats what worked for me anyway.
if you look to what is it? F class rifles they fire a small cartridge like .22ppc from a heavy rifle with solid barrel so hardly need much handling to make them shoot reasonably

compared to a for arguments sake lightweight 7mm mag with soda straw thin barrel with a heafty say 150 grn load honking along...now if you dont hold that puppy like a long lost lover you gunna be in world of pain when you squeeze off.......and after 10 or so rounds that will possibly be jerk trigger /close eyes///pull stock sideways AKA flinch like faaaaark


in short you got to know when to hold em .......yeah some guys do fold em.

How to Get a Springer to Shoot Straight | Airgun Depot I read this in the weekend it's about artillery hold. Maybe try seating the pellets with a pen. How fast is your springer pushing them out at

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Originally Posted by FatLabrador

How to Get a Springer to Shoot Straight | Airgun Depot I read this in the weekend it's about artillery hold. Maybe try seating the pellets with a pen. How fast is your springer pushing them out at

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Thats it in nutshell.
I was disapointed with my new gamo springer ( wouldnt shoot straight no matter how firmly I held it down)
Some research about artillery hold and a little practice well its all good now.

Very true. The Spring airgun and compound bow are Classics of twitchiness and volumes have been written on perfecting technique to get good results from them.

I'm thinking at the moment about powder burners and how a builder would make them to perform well with average shooter technique in the field as well as on the flat range or bench.

Learning from the airgun example we could add short lock time and possibly minimal internal moving parts as making it easier for the shooter.

I'm thinking that a narrower pistol grip might be more tolerant of variation in trigger hand position.
A palm swell feels nice (but only if its in just the right spot compared with how long your finger is).
But you need to get your hand in just the right location over it. If you're in a hurry or the position is unusual (eg elbow tucked up close to your body) then with a thinner grip your hand can move around without putting a new strange pressure on the stock.
Or maybe the palm swell definitely locates your hand so the trigger finger always reaches the same distance onto the trigger at the same angle and doesn't drift over to drag on the wood.
What do people think ?

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

I'm thinking that a narrower pistol grip might be more tolerant of variation in trigger hand position.
A palm swell feels nice (but only if its in just the right spot compared with how long your finger is).
But you need to get your hand in just the right location over it. If you're in a hurry or the position is unusual (eg elbow tucked up close to your body) then with a thinner grip your hand can move around without putting a new strange pressure on the stock.
Or maybe the palm swell definitely locates your hand so the trigger finger always reaches the same distance onto the trigger at the same angle and doesn't drift over to drag on the wood.
What do people think ?

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Option B for me I think - using my Savage Mk2 BTVS as an example, the sculpted shape and ergonomics of the thumbhole stock seems to put my trigger hand into the same position every time and result in more consistent shooting (from a variety of positions) than I've had from a skinny grip synthetic version of the same rifle, even though its capable of groups just as tight when all the variables are controlled well enough.

Weight, balance then stock shape and length for me. Scrunching myself up behind my little Kimber is fine for quick off hand shooting but not prone, whereas Tobys' model 70 here has plenty of weight and a decent LOP and can be shot well from any position.

Consistency is everything, a rifle moves about 1.6mm minimum before the bullet leaves the barrel (as per the laws of physics) so if you don't have consistency and follow through even in the most controlled conditions e.g. at the bench, your groups will suffer, and in the field its even more important.

Ah thanks for that figure, a couple of mm sounds about right.
Do you think it would be an advantage then to have a recoil pad that compressed by that amount so the rifle moves straight back at first, compared to one that's hard plastic where small differences in shoulder hardness / pressure would affect the jump more ?

GravelBen, does your thumbhole stock have much of a palm swell or is it a thin cylindrical pistol like grip inside ? A lot of tactical rifles have something like a vertical bike handlebar for your trigger hand - not sure if that's good or not.

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

GravelBen, does your thumbhole stock have much of a palm swell or is it a thin cylindrical pistol like grip inside ? A lot of tactical rifles have something like a vertical bike handlebar for your trigger hand - not sure if that's good or not.

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The palm swell is fairly big, there is basically only one comfortable hand position. Couple of old photos to give you an idea of the shape, pretty sure you wouldn't call it tactical style!

Attachment 75919Attachment 75920

Forgiving in what sense/context? If I'm on a multi-day trip, living out of my backpack, then I'd be more inclined to lean towards a rifle which is forgiving in weight...but that in turn may mean there needs to be a compromise in other area(s). So a forgiving mountain rifle may be different to a forgiving target rifle or a forgiving safari rifle?

Archery is no different. If utmost accuracy in a competition setting is your aim, then features such as length and weight can be explored freely without too much effect on practicality or comfort. Hunting in tight brush, however, or out of a blind, then you may opt for a shorter axle to axle bow - because a decrease in balance in favor of better maneuverability may provide a more forgiving bow in that specific situation.

Didn't realize this was the target shooting/range forum. Lol

Sort of renders my response irrelevant.

the ultimate desighn would revolve around one that's ideal forgiving to me :thumbsup:

the design that means the Mrs will forgive you for buying it without her knowledge.......

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

Ah thanks for that figure, a couple of mm sounds about right.
Do you think it would be an advantage then to have a recoil pad that compressed by that amount so the rifle moves straight back at first, compared to one that's hard plastic where small differences in shoulder hardness / pressure would affect the jump more ?

GravelBen, does your thumbhole stock have much of a palm swell or is it a thin cylindrical pistol like grip inside ? A lot of tactical rifles have something like a vertical bike handlebar for your trigger hand - not sure if that's good or not.

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The only thing a recoil pad does (apart from maybe reducing the bump felt by your shoulder) is "sometimes" it will stop the butt slipping or moving on you shirt or whatever but (pun intended) I don't think it makes any difference to how easy it is to shoot the rifle well really.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

with your springer hold the forend really firmly and your results will improove....well thats what worked for me anyway.
if you look to what is it? F class rifles they fire a small cartridge like .22ppc from a heavy rdontifle with solid barrel so hardly need much handling to make them shoot reasonably

compared to a for arguments sake lightweight 7mm mag with soda straw thin barrel with a heafty say 150 grn load honking along...now if you dont hold that puppy like a long lost lover you gunna be in world of pain when you squeeze off.......and after 10 or so rounds that will possibly be jerk trigger /close eyes///pull stock sideways AKA flinch like faaaaark


in short you got to know when to hold em .......yeah some guys do fold em.

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Dont know anybody using a 22ppc in F class most use 6.5x284,300wsm,284 or some other 7mm. Ballistics rule when you are shooting out to 1000 yrds
But yes heavy rifle shot in a rest with free recoil is the technique used

I think that other things being equal its easier to shoot well with a low recoiling rifle. -223 6mmPPC and so on dominate NZDA positonal shooting (Tavpo have a Special competition for those with" Big Balls" who have to use something more powerful than a -243 ). 6.5 cal is currently top in US Precision rifle Matches, Not -300 wm or 338 LM 300 NM That have some ballistic advantage in that field. with less recoil there's less jump and less variation in poi due to hold. Also psychogically easier. This is the flipside OF heavy rifle but without the need for great strength. So I'd propose that a lighter bullet gives a more forgiving cartridge.

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

A rifle should shoot well from a variety of positions, maintaining same point of impact despite differences in technique from shot to shot.

The concept of the "forgiving bow" is well known in archery but I haven't seen it applied in rifle shooting.

I have a springer air rifle, very expensive and top of the range. I wouldn't like to admit its less than accurate but I just can't shoot consistently well with it. On the other hand, I have a 7mmo8 which shoots to the same zero from sandbag, bench, prone on a front rest or a bipod. Whether I'm prone unsupported, draped over a rock or backpack, sitting rested across a branch, or waving around standing at a post, if the cross hair is on the target when it fires, the bullet will hit it. How do you design a gun like that ?

A couple of ideas I've thought of are:
Stock design for good recoil. I have no idea what geometry is needed for this.
Good cheek weld for eye position to scope. Also, parallax adjustment in the scope.
General stock fit to the individual shooter.
Heavy weight. I'm not sure if this is essential or not. Related is moment of inertia; That airgun weighs over 4kg but its short and has no barrel to speak of.
Bedding ? Is there something that makes it stable whether the stock is held tight or free recoil or stressed by a bipod ? Would ali pillar/frame or carbon fibre be better than bare wood or plastic ?

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The very way that rifles are designed - rigidity and tight tolerance through and through - means there is no such issue as a design choice for better consistency (unless we are talking rifles that intentionally sacrifice accuracy for weight savings). Most time when you are looking at an inaccurate rifle, the problem is quality control somewhere. In other words, for most accurate rifles, I do not think shooting in different position can inherently impact its consistency.

Having said that, I can only think of two things that can make you less consistent if you were shooting at less supported positions - Weight of the rifle and quality of the trigger.

First lets talk about weight. When you shoot with less support (for example, standing and kneeling without sling) the heavier the rifle, the more faster your muscles fatigue and the faster you run out of oxygen. They all result in shaky hands and unsteady trigger pull, which in turn makes your consistency suffer.

Now lets turn to trigger. For me personally, there are 2 attributes in a trigger that affects its shooting quality - cleanness of break and weight of pull. (I consider length of travel to be a matter of choice and does not inherently affect the shooting quality). When the rifle is shot from a more supported position (for example, when supported by a vice), even with a crappy trigger, your finger's trigger pull will move the rifle very little, and you can take all the time you need to carefully pull it pass the break.

When you shoot the rifle completely unsupported, your rifle is in constant but tiny movement. Shooting accurately is basically pulling the trigger at the precise moment of the cross-hair passing the target. The heavy pull combined with the uncertainty of when it would fire (as a result of mushy breaking) can easily throw off the timing or the rifle itself.

So, my conclusion is that if you want a consistent rifle, just pick a reasonably accurate rifle without too much weight, and put in a nice trigger. Luckily most 1000 dollar centre-fire rifle today are reasonably accurate and reasonably light. Further, Savage and Tikka have been heavily competing on making better factory triggers for about 10 years now. Most other brands of this price range have also improved their factory triggers.

A rifle should shoot well from a variety of positions, maintaining same point of impact despite differences in technique from shot to shot.
I'm not exactly sure what is meant by this statement or the title of the original posting with regards a forgiving rifle. I try to employ the same technique to my rifle shooting whether I'm prone, unsupported or shooting from say a tripod. If I do my part, that is if I use proper shooting techniques the rifle should shoot the same point of impact. What I've seen over the years, are shooters not adopting the shooting fundamentals when shooting from an unspported position, an example they start forcing a natural point of aim rather than make slight adjustment to their shooting position. With regards a forgiving rifle, to be honest I can't answer, forgiving in what way. I hunt with a Tikka T3 in 270wsm, the rifle is braked and has a limb saver recoil pad, with scope it's about 7 1/2 lbs, to be honest it has less felt recoil than my kids scoped Remington 700 7mm-08. For PRS type competitions I'm using a 15lb, scoped rifle in 260, minimal recoil so I can spot trace and make adjustments, but certainly not a rifle I would hunt the mts with.

I think it boils done to rifle fit (if all other quality features are a given). Some rifles just seam to be a perfect fit for the shooter, with this comes confidence and with confidence comes consistency.

Having owned many rifles over the years, my only advice is once you find a rifle that ticks all the boxes for you...ffs don't sell it, as you'll deeply regret it.

Out of the hundreds (no exaggeration) of rifles I've owned over the past 25 years only about 4 have fit me perfectly. I only have one of those in my possession now, and due to the addition of a 15MOA high rail been added... it no longer fits perfectly like it once did with ultra low rings. It was mentioned above that natural point of aim should occur, not an adjustment to your position to force it on target - to me, that's the definition of a good fit.

Kj

Main problem with springers is vibration and long trigger-to-muzzle-exit interval and consistent, good technique is key.

- Don't rest the gun directely against something hard (e.g. a tree), as it will bounce away from it during its vibrations.
- Similarly, in whatever position you hold the gun, support it in a similar way as this affects where it "shakes to".
- Shortly before you squeeze the trigger, lean into the gun and press it backwards firmly against the shoulder, whichever way you prefer to put it. This will lessen backwards / forwards movement alike, and lessen associated off-axis movement. A firm hold squeeze of the trigger is similarly a useful technique to both avoid trigger yank and to ensure firm gun hold - not ideal for target shooting, but useful in the bush when the adrenaline is up.

If you shoot a springer-piston air rifle unsupported and accurately, you can shoot.