Groups settling after cleaning

Was reading another thread about barrel cleaning and figured I'd toss this out to the group.

Have a plain stainless tikka in 7mm08 that shoots well with tuned loads. Gun is in good shape with no damage, bore is bright and sharp, nice crown, no real issues to speak of.

Only annoying thing is that the gun shoots well when it's dirty, but if I clean the bore the groups open up and take about 30-40 rounds to for the groups to tighten up again. I prefer to clean my rifles regularly, but this definitely makes me avoid cleaning this particular rifle more often than I have to.

I've tried the following to see if I can figure out why it does this:
- Cleaned the rifle without removing the action from the stock vs removing the action. Result: No difference
- Cleaned muzzle towards action, and also action towards muzzle. Result: No difference
- Cleaned the bore with brass vs nylon brushes. Result: No difference
- Cleaned the bore with brushes only, or brushes with patched jags. Result: No difference
- Cleaned the bore with hoppes, crc556, and dry. Result: No difference
- Wiped the bore and chamber with dry patches prior to shooting with patches vs no wiping prior to shooting. Result: No difference
- Torqued the action screws and checked for barrel contact with forestock when shooting as per online recommendations, tried various torque settings. Result: No difference

I'm going to bed the rifle in the next while in case I'm somehow disturbing it as part of the cleaning process and it's settling, but really I'm out of ideas. Funny thing is, leaving it uncleaned isn't really an issue, I'm just annoyed that I don't know why it does it. What do you guys think?

It likes a fouled barrel simple as that......If it aint broke fix it till it is

my wifes 243 likes to be cleaned every 50-80 rounds , groups open up past 100. take 3-4 rounds to settle down again. my 223 and 7m08 like to be dirty and take 10ish rounds to come right, think im up to 230 shots in the 223 and be 80ish for the 7mm. my uncle tells me rifles are like women some like to be clean and others are dirty btchs work out what you have and dont mess with it.

No personal experience, but some shooters in the US recommend Lock-ease for quicker settling of a barrel after cleaning. It's graphite in solution - apparently you leave a thin layer in the bore after you've finished your cleaning routine.

If you want to try it I'm not sure how easy it is to get actual Lock-ease in NZ, but presumably you could find something similar.

just oil it in beween if it shoots dirty then it makes no difference long as it shoots. just means you need to find how dirty is too dirty. my old 708 t3 was the same wouldnt shoot under 1.5" at 100y after a clean 10 rounds in started closing up

Sounds like you need to stop cleaning

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Originally Posted by gimp

Sounds like you need to stop cleaning

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Pretty much. It's at the stage now that unless it's obscenely dirty I just mist some oil down it and call it a day. Trouble is I like knowing why something is happening :D

the answer is because.

Currently I must be around at least 500 rounds since cleaning, accuracy is not affected, shoots 3/4 or better. I'm not a rough bugger, just my barrel despises being cleaned
Edit:
I do run a bore snake through after every hunt. Not what I'd call a cleaning regime though.

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Originally Posted by canross

Trouble is I like knowing why something is happening :D

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Over time, a layer of carbon and copper fouling builds up in the barrel. This fouling can help condition the bore, filling in microscopic imperfections and providing a consistent surface for the bullet to travel along.
Have you tried using just a carbon remover bore solvent but not a copper remover solvent? Keeping the copper fouling can sometimes act as a sort of buffer or cushion for the bullet, resulting in more consistent and predictable performance.

Or if that doesn't work then it's probably caused by fairy and pixie dust (with Elves sometimes in the mix)...

What size groups are you talking before and after cleaning?

I believe......what you experiencing will have something to do with fine copper coating filling in rougher bits of the bore..for better way to discribe it... try couple of oily patches/breakfree clp patches..then couple of dry patches then one with couple of drops CLP through then put it away...youve removed MOST of the bad crap,the carbon and powder residue, but will leave the other stuff filling in rough bits...barrel wont deteriate as has light coating of oil/clp that way its only when you get all fussy and do a deep clean you will have to foul barrel again.... target shooters are well known for shooting fouler shots to get barrel back to its best..yours obviously likes to be run a bit more dirty.
my old remington single shot 22lr used to take half a box of ammo to settle back down after cleaning..so stopped doing it.

your cleaning it to much!as said above you want copper to fill the microscopic imperfections in the barrel,just run one patch lightly oiled thru it after shooting for storage protection then dry patch it before next shoot.

Last month I thought it was a smart idea to put a ballon at the end of the barrel of one of my rifle and fill the barrel with Boretech eliminator. Group went from a 0.5moa average to 2inch at 100m…. It is getting better now after 60 rounds but still not as consistent. As other said if it ain’t broke don’t fix it

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Originally Posted by 7mmwsm

What size groups are you talking before and after cleaning?

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Checked saved targets:
Averaging 0.85 inch 5-shot groups fouled at 100 yards. Still working on my consistency so sometimes better, sometimes worse, but pretty uniformly between .60" on a good day and 1.05" on a bad day. I can usually call my bad shots from feel with the fouled bore, but with the cleaned bore it feels like the shots are more or less random regardless of how the shot felt.

Haven't kept the clean bore targets, but something around 3 inch groups at 100m freshly cleaned, sometimes with excessive fliers. Groupings come and go until about 40 rounds then seem to settle and tighten up and stay there.

Forgot to add that when shooting groups there are 5 quick sighting shots to warm the barrel up then following shots are done on 4 minute intervals in the shade. Usually don't shoot groups on hot days or direct sunlight so the barrel never really overheats or has significant heat changes over baseline for the shooting period. All this is from a concrete bench with stable rests and bags.

What you are experiencing is a common phenomenon and the simple solution is to not clean it so often, and when you do then just a quick pass with a dry brush is enough. My .223 Tikka CTR is similar and shoots around 0.6 - 0.75" for the first 10 rounds from a clean bore then settles to 0.4 - 0.5". It is a hunting rifle and either result is more than good enough. Just give your rifle the full de-luxe clean once a year (unless you arse-up in a creek).

My howa 223 is about 2000 rounds down, never had anything but the odd bit of CRC or Breakfree down the barrel and cleaned with a bore snake with bronze bristles removed, end of most days. Used about 3 days/week. Shoots 1'st shot slighly left after pull-through. 3 shot groups .6-.8 moa with Belmont Black ammo, shooting off bumbag on truck bonnet. .13 moa with 73gr ELDM handload, maybe a fluke but I'll take it. Not going to clean it any more than I already do in the forseeable future. My 308's don't get cleaned anymore than a pull through/cloth or occasional cloth and cleaning rod. Don't think I even own a bronze brush. My M88 and M70 I wouldn't have a clue how many rounds have been through them but its in the thousands and they both shoot minute of goat/deer out to about 300m ( 4x scopes ) if I keep my shit together. Aint going to change my ways after 49 years. Went through a phase of cleaning barrels religiously, kept the gunshop happy. Fuck that, rifles are for shooting, not playing with. I have a feeling a lot of guys on here spend way too much time cleaning their safe queens rather than getting trigger time. Sorry for the long essay. Off to bed shortly, another 2-3 days of fking up goats/deer days and nights.

Man you are using a lot of ammo after a barrel clean just to get better groups.
Heres an old target shot by my 308 tikka 8yrs ago after a gentle patch hoppys clean thru the barrel.
Hornady 165gr ssts.2nd and 3rd group very happy with,go hunting.I think you should try some different ammo.
Attachment 243026

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Originally Posted by Trout

Man you are using a lot of ammo after a barrel clean just to get better groups.
Heres an old target shot by my 308 tikka 8yrs ago after a gentle patch hoppys clean thru the barrel.
Hornady 165gr ssts.2nd and 3rd group very happy with,go hunting.I think you should try some different ammo.

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Yep, that's a big factor and probably the main reason why I stopped cleaning it - cost of getting it grouping again.

Would be very interesting to have a bunch of sacrificial barrels from the same manufacturer that behave differently, section them and get them under a microscope to determine the differences between them.

I wonder if a cast lead round or two would speed up the process????

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Originally Posted by PaulNZ

No personal experience, but some shooters in the US recommend Lock-ease for quicker settling of a barrel after cleaning. It's graphite in solution - apparently you leave a thin layer in the bore after you've finished your cleaning routine.

If you want to try it I'm not sure how easy it is to get actual Lock-ease in NZ, but presumably you could find something similar.

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Speedy Gonzoles said in an interview with Eric Cortina that Lock-ease is used by benchers shooters as a last step in the cleaning process between matches. Some competition shooters from different disciplines tried it with mixed results.

I let my barrels tell me when they need to be cleaned. Like someone else said, some shoot better dirty than clean. My cut rifled barrels always shoot better dirty until they get about 100-120 rounds on them. There is a least 5 shots required until they settle back into the same poi.
Cheers

You can only get Lockease by importing it.
There is an equivalent local product- can't remember where I got it from but they're a science/tech supplier. Just search colloidal graphite and it should come up.

Attachment 243085

It def makes a difference on first shots being in zero. Nothing is perfect but far better than a just-cleaned bore.

If it did work, I'm guessing you'd want to apply it before a trip and then re-oil the bore before putting the gun back in the safe. The alcohol carrier would be a good degreaser and strip out any corrosion protection.

Maybe too tired Maybe few too many Jesus juices but im a bit confused . So the gun shoots amazing after 35ish shots from your cleaning regime. You have done the hard work and found the answer to your accuracy question.
Many guns never get a chance to show their potential. Especially hunting guns but you have done it. Well done.

But before i go to bed i would add barrel conditioning / fouling is the thing that i found affected the bedding harmonics more than anything in my rifles.
My big 338 custom that averaged. 4moa started to play up so after going over the obvious, I looked at barrel conditions after its 150-ish shots. Oh my gosh i could move a .25-.4moa group all over the place with different products or techniques but not consistent enough for a one shot /one kill gun. I sent gun back to builder to go over everything i had done and then check the (gasp) nightforcce scope. After many update messages and calls they decided to replace the scope as a last call and found a front base screw had broken its locktite.
Huge story/small, the 300gr bullet at over 2900fps had enough harmonics that the slightly loose 32oz scope would double group and different cleaning techniques and/or products would make it worse.
My Sako75 finnlite in7mm08 from new would send its 1st shot from clean 4" high. 2nd,3rd,4th,5th etc touching in the bull.
I put up withit and hoped it would run in. Nup.
I tried all cleaning products and techniques and found if i used inox to clean residue out but left copper in it would shoot fine . 18 years later i got the urge to hunt with it again but wanted it suppressed so after Friwi/DPT did their thing i went to the range and WTF .
Clean/dirty/really clean/oiled 1st 2nd,3rd 4th shot didn't matter. .25moa. The whole time the bore was affecting the bedding but not as much as the barrel weight of the suppressor could tune.
Bit of a rant but maybe someone can use this info/or not

For the tikka owners,Iv never put a wire,nylon brush down the barrel.After a few shots at the range or hunting,20 shots later.I just push thru about 3 or 4 wet hops till the patch turn clean,then 3 dry patches.
Go to the range,do a couple of dry fires,settle the eyes and yr position,get scope sorted,put a fowling shot thru 1st if you like before chaseing a group.Sqeeze off three nice relaxed shots,dont hand fist hold the rifle tight.Iv always use Hornaday Superformace 165gr ssts or 150ssts for the last 20yrs I know what I do is very repectable with the tikka 308 n ammo.
My first group in blue circle after a light clean.I was zeroing my nikko stirling scope,not an expensive scope but reliable.
Repeatability is want you want.I think theres too much deep cleaning of barrels and listning to young guys trying to sell you cleaning products behind the counter that you dont know much about.
Attachment 243327

Had to reset zero after a little accident.Gave 308 barrel a gentle clean.Fired off these 3 groups,10 minuts between each group.Last 3 shots just half on ball but centre.I thort no more shooting,just dial up 2 clks.I thort pretty good for oldish eyes.
Attachment 248218
Red dots where they should be next.

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Originally Posted by Trout

Had to reset zero after a little accident.Gave 308 barrel a gentle clean.Fired off these 3 groups,10 minuts between each group.Last 3 shots just half on ball but centre.I thort no more shooting,just dial up 2 clks.I thort pretty good for oldish eyes.
Attachment 248218
Red dots where they should be next.

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Should be happy with that. I would be. Nice shooting.
Do you think the cleaning helped ?

Yes I reckn after about every 20 rds,the groups slowly grow a bit.But with gentle cleaning I only push thru say 3 wets hopes n 3 drys.After doing the same process over many yrs with tikas 308 firing Hornady ssts 165gr.Small groups show so much easier in the first 2 or 3 shot groups.No waiting for fowling shots to smooth out barrel.Just go hunt n shoot with conferdence.
My thermal clip on is just as accurate as above group.
No heavey cleaning or wire brushs used.

If it’s not a long range hunting rifle I wouldn’t worry about it. Clean it and even if it takes 2-3 shots to really settle down your shooting distance will still mean a dead deer. A longer range shooter (rem mag) may need to be aware of grouping after a good cleaning. On the other hand you could clean it and smack a couple into the bank before heading up the hill (assuming the deer aren’t too close to the truck to all piss off).

The answer is 7,08……….:o changed to 303 problem solved:redbullsmiley::XD:

Have you slugged and measured the bore? Could be a loose fit

If you don't clean your rifle what is the best way to protect the barrel from corrosion if it's been out in the wet?

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Originally Posted by Quicknock

If you don't clean your rifle what is the best way to protect the barrel from corrosion if it's been out in the wet?

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I usually run a boar snake down the barrel if its been out in the rain or after a range session. And after the last month of crawling around the hills ,i've just given my trusty Tikka rm. a good clean. removed the stock ,cleaned all the rubbish out that had got in under the barrel channel and gave the boar a light scrub with a nylon brush. Put it all back together and off to the range to check my zero. Result was 5 shots under an inch and zero spot on. Ya cant beat a Tikka aye!! or at least my one.