Military surplus ammo

Hi guys,

Recently aquired a nice old Lee enfield no4 mk1 full wood.
Been looking around for some deals for ammo for it,

This is my first rifle I've owned that is more then twice my age lol, I'm wanting to know what ammunition is ok to put through it. Obviously the new stuff like prvi and the likes but I see Gun shitty has some Greek ex military ammunition at a reasonable price and there's some Australian ex military stuff on trademe also. I haven't delt with ammo that is that old before so im just a bit wary about it.

Has anyone shot any of the above? If so what was it any good?

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Regards Magnus

Do you reload at all? of you do, soft reloads shouldn't be much of a problem to make.

Also if you're in the market for PRVI, take a look at Ammo Direct.

Reloading no. That was gonna be my next thread as its something I really need to look at doing. Right you are with Ammo Direct they seem to be the cheapest around for factory loaded ammo for the ol 303.

Has anyone had any experience with that Greek HXP military stuff going around atm?

Several of the guys turning up at WSRA have used the Greek stuff. It's pretty nasty - lots of corrosion on the outside, misfires etc.

If you plan on reloading, grab some PRVI, and you score good brass at a "cheap" price.

Alternatively buy some club ammo. Have a chat to the secretary.

Of all the surplus .303, CAC Mk VII of the 1950's is the best you can get (if you can find any). Privi Partisan is OK, cheap enough, and will give you a good source of brass for reloading. You don't want to be mucking about with misfires and hangfires if you value your rifle and your extremities! Go for clean and bright surplus if you can find it, or go commercial and get some good brass.

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Originally Posted by ebf

Several of the guys turning up at WSRA have used the Greek stuff. It's pretty nasty - lots of corrosion on the outside, misfires etc.

If you plan on reloading, grab some PRVI, and you score good brass at a "cheap" price.

Alternatively buy some club ammo. Have a chat to the secretary.

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Thanks I won't bother with the Greek rubbish then. I'm looking at coming up the next WSRA shoot which sounds like February? Il definitely make myself known so come say hi if your there, Keen to meet as many friendly people as possible

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Originally Posted by Magnus

Thanks I won't bother with the Greek rubbish then. I'm looking at coming up the next WSRA shoot which sounds like February? Il definitely make myself known so come say hi if your there, Keen to meet as many friendly people as possible

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Greek "rubbish" shoots fine, great brass as already pointed out, Winchester setup and owned the HXP factory (made .45acp and 30/06 for the USArmy, .303 forUK cadet forces into the 1980s), non erosive ball powder, non corrosive boxer primed. But not great in many two groove No 4 Lee Enfields. Shoots straighter than I can shoot unsupported at least in my H barrel No 1 mk iii. Definitely worth 1 dollar a bang! Agree though it is a bit naughty of GC to tumble the corrosion off the ammo before sale.

So I maybe a bit premature calling it rubbish. All I'm worried about is the corrosive factor and keeping my face.
So it may shoot OK in say a 5 groove barrel?

Poorly stored ammo shows tarnishing and corrosion, and this is cause to be wary of misfires and much worse, hangfires! If using ammo of this kind and you get a misfire, slowly count to ten before opening the bolt, and keeping the rifle pointed downrange. Hangfires usually go off within a couple of seconds so you have a safety margin before opening the bolt. If one goes off just as you get the bolt unlocked then you can suffer serious (possibly fatal) injury. The alternative is to pull the ammo and save the powder and projectile, reprime with fresh primers, and reload the components. The powder is usually OK, the problem lies in the primers.

I bought a bunch of the greek stuff when it first came in and was on sale for $0.50 a round, with new powder and primer and a pin tumble for the brass and a cobb tumble for the bullets its still cheep 303 shooting with no wories and your still left with brass that I have been selling for $0.50 a case once fired after another tumble

Most two groove rifles (long branch and savage) dont shoot to their potential with boat tail bullets as they require a flat base to mash out to fill the grooves. With flat based bullets mil surplus eg CAC mk 7 they shoot very well easily as good as a 5 groove will.
Out of interest who made your no 4 some pics would be appreciated.

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Originally Posted by Magnus

So I maybe a bit premature calling it rubbish. All I'm worried about is the corrosive factor and keeping my face.
So it may shoot OK in say a 5 groove barrel?

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Yes, I would expect it to do fine in a 5-groove Lee Enfield.

Don't listen to the worry pots talking about a 'weaker' bolt than on a Mauser. It is not weaker, as the rear lugs just mean it had to be kitted out with a stronger receiver, but a stronger receiver it did get! It is entirely fit for purpose and you can shoot it safely with factory loads and recommended reloads.

Rear locking lugs and the 60 degree rather than full 90degree lock are a deliberate design which gives the Lee rifle certain advantages - including not having to lift your head out of the way to save your right eye whenever you extract a shell, or having the sight picture obstructed by a bolt handle between shots.

Addition of charger clip loading (post Boer war experience) was however required to bring it to a par with the Mauser rifle, possibly beyond it in some ways. The LE is not a sharpshooter's rifle, rather it's rather an unpretty agricultural tool originally designed to assault a lot of people in quick succession. We don't often hear stories of how Joey took a deer at 650 yards with granddad's Lee Enfield. Many of them have shot out barrels to different extents. If you have a good barrel, don't shoot WW2 or even 1950s ammo as Cordite burns too hot and so especially erodes the barrel throat (first part where rifling begins), never mind those corrosive primers.

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Originally Posted by gundoc

Poorly stored ammo shows tarnishing and corrosion, and this is cause to be wary of misfires and much worse, hangfires! If using ammo of this kind and you get a misfire, slowly count to ten before opening the bolt, and keeping the rifle pointed downrange. Hangfires usually go off within a couple of seconds so you have a safety margin before opening the bolt. If one goes off just as you get the bolt unlocked then you can suffer serious (possibly fatal) injury. The alternative is to pull the ammo and save the powder and projectile, reprime with fresh primers, and reload the components. The powder is usually OK, the problem lies in the primers.

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Attachment 102185

This appears to be the stuff in question.

I know I blamed the rifle when I initially tried out my model E project with the greek ammo, but my gut feel is that I didn't like it.
Didn't put a lot down range as it wouldn't have proved anything other than it was likely my rifle, but I still recall thinking they didn't all recoil the same. First shot felt like my 243.
Others just seemed like they recoiled more.
Bolt wasn't always the easiest to lift but no issues with the primers and no funny marks on the cases either.

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Originally Posted by csmiffy

I know I blamed the rifle when I initially tried out my model E project with the greek ammo, but my gut feel is that I didn't like it.
Didn't put a lot down range as it wouldn't have proved anything other than it was likely my rifle, but I still recall thinking they didn't all recoil the same. First shot felt like my 243.
Others just seemed like they recoiled more.
Bolt wasn't always the easiest to lift but no issues with the primers and no funny marks on the cases either.

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yer a bunch a' quiv'rin ol' women, worrying 'bout nothin'. Heh heh.

Attachment 102189

Had one HXP do a misfire on me, shot several hundred by now with no hangfires. The old cordite ammo, made by GB in the UK about 1950 on the other hand was bad for hangfires, one batch of forty rounds almost every one was clickbang, taught you about follow through though, lots of fun but it was just targets, no deer got away. (-:

Agree on Gundoc's warning about the 10 secs.

GCs worst crime in the matter of the HXP is separating it from the nice stripper clips it came in and onselling them separately, $20 for five.

The storage in the parkerised steel stripper clips is the source of the corrosion btw, it is not because it is bad ammo or stored particularly terribly. It is external corrosion and not from some nasty chemical in the powder eating its way out of the cases.

For Milurp ammunition 10 secs for a missfire is asking for trouble , a minimum of 30 is best . We have had some finally go off at 27 seconds and that was from when it was timed not from the actual firing . This only really applies to the old dodgy stuff , and then if possible put it in a metal box to keep your undies clean .

strange how no one has suggested to recock and fire again with a hangfire....easy to do with SMLE or external hammer and not possible with a mauser....
if using factory ammo which NORMALLY comes in either 150 or 180 grn you will find your rifle likes one weight way more than the other,another thing to keep in mind the rear locking actions often/usually shoot different ammo to different points of impact.... NOT a good rifle to mix and match ammo with.

It is interesting how different ammo degrades over time.

Pretty much all the German 8mm is buggered now. However the 9x19 seems fine.

The LC 3006 and .45 supplied to Norway under the Marshall aid plan is erratic at best,often the projectiles are corroded inside the case and when you pull the bullet there is a hiss of escaping gas.

A guy I know had 8000 rounds of 303 that was smuggled to the resistance during the war,it was stored in it's wooden crates that were sealed in tin.Ammo looks bright and shiney but at least 10% won't go off and as many hang fire.

I think GC is walking a fine line with there Greek HXP.

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Originally Posted by norsk

It is interesting how different ammo degrades over time.

Pretty much all the German 8mm is buggered now. However the 9x19 seems fine.

The LC 3006 and .45 supplied to Norway under the Marshall aid plan is erratic at best,often the projectiles are corroded inside the case and when you pull the bullet there is a hiss of escaping gas.

A guy I know had 8000 rounds of 303 that was smuggled to the resistance during the war,it was stored in it's wooden crates that were sealed in tin.Ammo looks bright and shiney but at least 10% won't go off and as many hang fire.

I think GC is walking a fine line with there Greek HXP.

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Agree. Differences between the different .303 ammo:

A: 1940s, Corrosive Potassium Chlorate primers, Throat-erosive Cordite propellant. Cordite stable to store but naturally hard to ignite.
B: 1970s, Non-corrosive lead styphnate primers, Modern throat-friendlier ball powder. ?stability of ball powder, but 30+ years younger.

I wonder if the wartime ammo is made to military specs with a more rigid primer cup, and we experience more hangfires/misfires due to our Lee Enfields simply having weakened striker springs. Consider: it's not just the ammo which is getting older.

Here is a source of replacement striker pins for Lee Enfields:
https://www.ds-solutions.co.uk/lee-e...w-and-Unissued

There are setups out there that produce double and triple strength striker springs, one outfit in the UK was selling stainless or titanium striker pins - all in the pursuit of reduced lock time - important if you shoot your rifle unsupported (as in out in the bush not on the range with a nice table for your bipod).
https://www.firingpins.com/firing-pi...eld-firing-pin

But ask yourself, how far will you supercharge a Ford-T? Heh heh. (-:

read interesting article today schooling myself up on black powder....went on to tell about cordite and what it was and the corrosion issues...seems WIKI does know a thing or three.... hardcase the WIKI how to on making black powder had simple cartoon illistrations to go with it LOL.

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

read interesting article today schooling myself up on black powder....went on to tell about cordite and what it was and the corrosion issues...seems WIKI does know a thing or three.... hardcase the WIKI how to on making black powder had simple cartoon illistrations to go with it LOL.

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Just as well I didn't have all that information when I making "black powder" back in school. Might have made something actually dangerous.

I dont believe the Americans or Germans used Cordite.
However there Germans used Steel cases that seem to react with their powder. Although the ball seems nice on the outside the case and projectile are corroded as well as the charge degraded.

The best you can hope for is a weak charge that produces enough pressure to push the bullet out the muzzle. The worst is a blocked bore.

The American stuff from the 1950s suffers from a charge degradation also.perhaps from the breakdown of the powder? Although the cases are brass,the powder is clumsy,has produced gas as well as the copper jacket of the projectiles corroded.

Frankly there is no ammo like new ammo.

Is there any military stuff that has aged/ been stored particularly well over time ?. I'm wondering about S.A. R1M1 7.62x51 in those plastic battle packs.

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Originally Posted by Max Headroom

Is there any military stuff that has aged/ been stored particularly well over time ?. I'm wondering about S.A. R1M1 7.62x51 in those plastic battle packs.

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There lies the question:

It is not so much the year of manufacturing but rather the temperature fluctuations the item has been subject to. The SA ball in it's battle packs would be fine I am sure.Since despite the outside humidity the inside environment remains the same.

Picked up a few hundred of the Greek .303 from Bronco's, but havn't used it yet. There's the odd round in there that's not Greek, a few CAC, some Brit, even the odd Sth African.

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Originally Posted by Max Headroom

Is there any military stuff that has aged/ been stored particularly well over time ?. I'm wondering about S.A. R1M1 7.62x51 in those plastic battle packs.

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I have used over 20k of R1M1 without a single tarnished one being seen, and without any other issues