Problems "stretching it"

Today we has a "Hunter Long Range" gongs day. Weather was fine, airport wind readings were 30 NW at 1.00pm, 15 SW at 2 and 13 SW at 3. There were a few puffs though.

Everyone validates at 100M on our range, we had 12 or so rifles and 15-16 shooters. Rifles were the usual mix of Tikka's (my 270 included) and other factory rifles plus a few heavier almost PRS style custom jobbies . . .

After 100M we put up the Eric Cortina rack, which starts at a 12" plate down in 2" increments to 2" ( so 12, 10, 8, 6 etc ) but the 2" plate was off for today, just as well as it turned out.

At 305M most shooters got a first round hit on the 12" but only a one or two made hits for all 5 rounds down to the 4" plate. I got to the 6" ok but I'd dialed incorrectly and missed the 4". Bother.

Back to our furtherest mound, 571M. Wind was puffy and dropping. It wasn't until we had finished shooting I realized not one shooter had made a first round hit on the 12" plate. A few guys did get the 6" within thier 5 rounds after correcting thier wind call, and after when it was a yippee shoot there were hits on the 4" (me included).

It just goes to show how difficult wind calls get after 300M or so. By 500+ without sighters it will humble any shooter and is a reminder about ethical shooting distances.

I must admit I am pleased to hear reports like that. It's what I found when I started to push out to and beyond 500, and I limited myself quite quickly in hunting situations because of it. But for a long time I thought it was just me that either recognised field limitations or I was a bad shot. Because it wasn't really talked about a lot.

Not sure if you've had the chance to shoot a high-er (.7+ G1) BC bullet, but they are really what makes the difference.

A 180 ELDM going 2800 fps+ will get you first round impacts at 800m on a 12"- 1ft square of steel if your rifle, reloading and wind calls are approaching halfway decent (like me).

Some love to hate the 6.5 Creedmoor because it came 'ready to shoot' from a gunshop as a round that stomped quite a few custom rifles due to the fast twist rate and decent factory ammunition (Hornady Match or Precision Hunter) available.

Don't chase speed but consistency in reloads. Better to have a slow and steady pill which is aerodynamic and predictable in the wind vs. a zippy pill that drops like a stone after 300m.

Sounds like a ton of fun.

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Originally Posted by caberslash

Not sure if you've had the chance to shoot a high-er (.7+ G1) BC bullet, but they are really what makes the difference.

A 180 ELDM going 2800 fps+ will get you first round impacts at 800m on a 12"- 1ft square of steel if your rifle, reloading and wind calls are approaching halfway decent (like me).

Some love to hate the 6.5 Creedmoor because it came 'ready to shoot' from a gunshop as a round that stomped quite a few custom rifles due to the fast twist rate and decent factory ammunition (Hornady Match or Precision Hunter) available.

Don't chase speed but consistency in reloads. Better to have a slow and steady pill which is aerodynamic and predictable in the wind vs. a zippy pill that drops like a stone after 300m.

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It's nothing to do with rifles or projectiles (one of the guys runs a very well set up 280 AI, another a 7mm RM, I've seen both get close to podium finishes at large PRS shoots) , you can't just "gear junkie" you way out of reading wind, if it's difficult it's going to catch even very good, well equiped shooters.

Its all about the gear - estimating range- on a recent hunt- all on farmland we were spotting fallow at various ranges-mate had a range finder - man I soon shut my trap - I was consistently over estimating and under estimating fallow by 50 - 100 yards - not the ones out to say 200 - but the ones 3-500 out wrong most of time - the rangefinder was not lying though - we were only allowed a couple each so no drama- good day out- saw around 30 - shot mine at 50-75 yards each - easy as - good to sometimes watch deer - amazed some of the fences those fallow could get thru

I don't think you can reliably hit targets smaller than about 12" (same maybe as a very large deer?) much over 350M estimating the range . . . I know it's been done but it strikes me as being more of a fluke than anything else (including skill)

I think most hunters over estimate their ability.

I just limit myself to about 180 yards. KISS Longest shot ever, 165 yards at a fox, dead as a door nail.

Was watching Hunting Aotearoa today. One bloke nailed a sambar at 720 yards, next bloke missed one by a mile at 900yards. A while back on a show a huge miss I think about 500yards.

I mean really,,, they broadcast that stuff.
IMO, those shots are not ethical. Even sillier to broadcast them.

If during practice in field positions you can't reliably hit the target area,,,just dont take those shots in the field. Get closer. Simples.

Next time I'm at the range I'll try a few at 200 just for interest.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

It's nothing to do with rifles or projectiles (one of the guys runs a very well set up 280 AI, another a 7mm RM, I've seen both get close to podium finishes at large PRS shoots) , you can't just "gear junkie" you way out of reading wind, if it's difficult it's going to catch even very good, well equiped shooters.

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Read my post again. Unless they are running the good bullets then it does not matter what the chambering is.

If 280's and 7Mag's are coming close to being on a podium on a PRS shoot, but the same bloke has trouble on a KYL rack, then the standards of shooting must be very low.

Unless you are shooting 6mm something with a 20lb+ rifle, you won't podium in a proper PRS match.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

I don't think you can reliably hit targets smaller than about 12" (same maybe as a very large deer?) much over 350M estimating the range . . . I know it's been done but it strikes me as being more of a fluke than anything else (including skill)

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You can... if you know the target size and you have a good scope reticle. But it sounds like you just discovered fire (or the internet) so I'm not surprised you think that way.

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Originally Posted by caberslash

Read my post again. Unless they are running the good bullets then it does not matter what the chambering is.

If 280's and 7Mag's are coming close to being on a podium on a PRS shoot, but the same bloke has trouble on a KYL rack, then the standards of shooting must be very low.

Unless you are shooting 6mm something with a 20lb+ rifle, you won't podium in a proper PRS match.

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So it's no real difference to any other target rifle style comp. Rifles that are not practical for hunting.

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Originally Posted by caberslash

You can... if you know the target size and you have a good scope reticle. But it sounds like you just discovered fire (or the internet) so I'm not surprised you think that way.

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Tent man is correct. You might do it constantly on steel, but not in field conditions with animals of varying size and no range finder. Unless you have practiced on game in field conditions a lot. and that means a lot of misses or bad shots initially.

And actually to do so, you need to throw away the modern long range book, and go too a lighter for cal projectile going as fast as possible. .270 with 130gr etc. Terrible BC I know, but thats what works best. Because you want 50 yards of forgiveness in your range estimation at least.

Bush hunting didn't worry about range.
Used to practice estimating range all the time .22 and .223 on hare's rabbits etc.
Count posts down a fence line, or pace out after shot.
Fencers have a pretty good idea of distance.
From memory the "old" reticle from thin to thick was meant to be an average deer chest at x distance.
Plus the old 3" rule.

I’ve posted this before regarding old US military qualifying targets. To pass you had to hit at 100 yards: Prone 2 Moa target, Sitting or Kneeling Supported 3 Moa, Sitting Unsupported 5 Moa, 7 Moa. Since tightened up requirements these days. Can apply the same guidelines to hunting. The thing is that unless you can consistently achieve this at 100 yards or metres then ethically you shouldn’t attempt any longer ranges on animals. Go to a range and see if you can consistently keep your shots within less than 2 Moa at say, 600 yds/metres, before attempting a shot on an animal. I know some may not always stick to the guidelines but NZDA Code of Ethics emphasises “the highest ethical standards in recreational hunting, focusing on animal welfare, minimising cruelty, and promoting humanely killed animals”. If you can’t guesstimate ranges beyond 200, don’t shoot at longer ranges. Just my 2c.

Haha, Im a fencer!

But this isnt about estimating distance, we were shooting on a range, where exact distance is known.

Its about "seeing wind" and making an appropriate correction. Yes at distances under 350 or so high BC bullets and velocity will help, one of our shooters runs a 6 CM and his mantra is "dont try guessing it, hold edge of plate and send it" . He is a very accomplished shooter and as mentioned does as well in PRS as you can do once you're a bit older and less athletic. But he didnt make that first round hit!

Thats because we had a wind from about 110 degrees coming over a row of really big trees about 100M parallel to the range. In certain conditions it plays merry hell. We dont put up wind flags like the FClass ranges do, so you're limited to looking at the trees, grass, mirage etc. - very much like looking out over a face when hunting.

I wouldnt dream of taking a shot at 500M at an animal in such conditions, even on the relatively flat gound of an NRA range any decent stalker could close up to 200M or so for a certain shot using the available relief and cover.

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Originally Posted by caberslash

You can... if you know the target size and you have a good scope reticle. But it sounds like you just discovered fire (or the internet) so I'm not surprised you think that way.

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wtf Harrison?
What’s happened to you mate?

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Originally Posted by Flyblown

wtf Harrison?
What’s happened to you mate?

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If you know this fuckwit you might want to suggest he pulls his head in ...

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Haha, Im a fencer!

But this isnt about estimating distance, we were shooting on a range, where exact distance is known.

Its about "seeing wind" and making an appropriate correction. Yes at distances under 350 or so high BC bullets and velocity will help, one of our shooters runs a 6 CM and his mantra is "dont try guessing it, hold edge of plate and send it" . He is a very accomplished shooter and as mentioned does as well in PRS as you can do once you're a bit older and less athletic. But he didnt make that first round hit!

Thats because we had a wind from about 110 degrees coming over a row of really big trees about 100M parallel to the range. In certain conditions it plays merry hell. We dont put up wind flags like the FClass ranges do, so you're limited to looking at the trees, grass, mirage etc. - very much like looking out over a face when hunting.

I wouldnt dream of taking a shot at 500M at an animal in such conditions, even on the relatively flat gound of an NRA range any decent stalker could close up to 200M or so for a certain shot using the available relief and cover.

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That