What do you guys do? I have never bothered doing any sorting but see in a few posts some go to the effort, is it worth it? What sort of sorting? Measure overall length, weigh them inestered to hear your ideas
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What do you guys do? I have never bothered doing any sorting but see in a few posts some go to the effort, is it worth it? What sort of sorting? Measure overall length, weigh them inestered to hear your ideas
I think it's rim thickness.
As in.... in a rough way... drop the round into a socket where the rim doesn't go through. And the projectile doesn't stick out then measure between the bottom of the socket and the top of the rim.
Just look for different thickness.
I did some 17hmr it may of helped on paper but I don't see much need.
If your after consistency in .22 rim fire maybe try the Lapua rounds.
More you pay the better the results... Looking for a way around it! Socket idea sounds a nice simple way
I'm pretty sure that's what I did. But it was ages ago. Maybe Google about it to check up.
The rim fires make small centre fires and custom hand loads attractive to me for this reason.
The more you pay the better the results. That's why RWS & eley ammo is expensive, but it's good enough for the Olympics.
There's a good post on RFC about sorting vs resizing vs cost. Thousands of rounds over a few different rifles. Final result was basically quality costs.
I run mine through a rim thickness gauge.You won't make honey out of goat shit and you won't make better honey but you can by batching the ammo tighten your groups and remove quite a lot of the fliers.Worth doing IMHO.
Running fci subs at the momentband fairly happy just wondering if it can get better. Might get sum eley next time i'm in town, might be jore expensive but i'm sure its still cheaper than factory centrefire
In the early 90s Norinco 22 ammo was available. It was supposedly made using equipment sourced from Eley. For smallbore club shooting we used to sort it by rim thickness, wipe off the excess lube, and it shot as well as any club grade ammo. The sorting by rim thickness seemed to make a difference. Obviously the dearer Eley match ammo was still the best though. I still have the tool we used to use RIMFIRE GAUGE
His claims may be a bit optimistic though with some of the ammo around with rim thickness being only one of the variables.
I have recently been through the weight sorting exercise with some Norma 22LR ammunition. The Norma ammunition was cheaper than the Lapua I was using and had a slightly better average group at 100m and 200m. I still get the occasional flier in the groups though and weight sorting didn't seem to make much difference to this.
My next step is to look at rim thickness - although with Norma I am not expecting to find much variation. The last step I thought I might look at is rim to ogive length. I don't mind for practice ammunition but for competition those fliers may prove to be frustrating.
I have also read of good resulting looking at concentricity but as I don't have a concentricity gauge I will leave that alone!
@Gillie where are you getting your Norma from?
Hi @zimmer, I get mine through a dealer from NZ Ammunition Company.
@Gillie Checked their website and only saw the Ruag RWS. What line of Norma are you using? Sorry to ask for you give away secrets ha ha. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by Gillie
@zimmer, I am using this Norma Match 22LR Link - but mine comes in a different box.
My testing with 22LR ammunition proved what someone else tried explaining to me when I started testing. My last lot of 22LR accuracy testing involved Lapua Polar Biathlon, Eley Black, SK Rifle Match, Norma Match, and several RWS ammunition types including Target Rifle, Special Match, Rifle Match, and R50. I shot ten shot groups at 50m, 100m and 200m as well as 10 shot strings over the MagnetoSpeed to check velocity consistency.
The Eley Black had the best group at 50m but several of the ammunition types came in with 12mm groups on average. Several groups had occasional fliers as well.
At 100m it was the Norma Match and SK Match that had the best 10 shot groups (about 30mm) by a slight margin over the Eley Black, RWS R50, and Lapua Polar Biathlon. Again there were occasional fliers that I did not exclude from the group.
200m is a serious test for a 22LR and this is where the Norma came through - under trying conditions it produced a 10 shot 2MOA group with 8 shots just over 1MOA. The SK Match, RWS R50, and Lapua Polar Biathlon produced 3MOA groups with most of their shots coming in to a 1.5-2MOA group. The Eley Black did not perform this well at 200m at all.
I have since shot a series of 10 shots groups with the Norma at 200m and it looks like there is on average 1 flier every 10 shots or so - otherwise is was consistently producing a 50mm vertical group at 200m with the fliers up to 100mm high or low.
To be clear I am not the best shooter, have never been a small bore shooter, and all the groups were shot off the bipod and rear bag.
So being happy with the price and the overall accuracy I want to try and eliminate the fliers from the groups. Weight sorting didn't seem to make much difference... so now to try something else.
BTW I would expect different results in a different 22LR barrel/rifle :thumbsup:
Try testing CCI std . I think you will be very surprised
Wil be going to the nzda chch range this sat so will pick up a few boxes of different brands to try
What sort of variation are we talking about in rim thickness? I measured the first row out of a new pack of CCI subs with a set of digital calipers and they were within 0.02mm which is pretty much the limit of accuracy of the calipers anyway
In your experience does it test well against the target ammunition?Quote:
Originally Posted by Driverman
I shot it some years ago when I first got my current 22LR and it didn't shoot as accurately in that rifle when put up against the target ammunition.
CCI is wonderful ammo for its price. I churn though bricks and bricks of it. However, it still has that annoying aspect though of popping shots out of the group. Have been doing a lot of 100yd grouping lately and that sorts out the seriously good ammo (and gear). Have been using an old BSA target rifle with diopter sights and a Walther Silo rifle. The BSA groups around 1.5-3 MOA with CCI std, again with the odd miscreant shot ruining the game. Using Fiocchi V320 (match ammo no longer available here I believe) I am getting groups down around .65 MOA. Not every group obviously but reasonably consistant. Not bad given my shite eyesight and metallic sights. Much depends upon the wind conditions on the day though. With the Walther my best results are with SK and strangely Fiocchi M320 which is a cheaper match ammo than their V320. @Gillie haven't tried as large a range of ammo as you but have run various RWS, SK, Fiocchi (already mentioned, the Italian stuff not the Mex), Geco, Lapua Club (tinned stuff) Winchester (mmm why did I try that). One of the worst was Federal Gold Medal which was quite expensive. When I got it home I noticed over 1/2 of the contents of the box were badly tarnished and the lube was a strange colour. Did the Yanks unload a pile of their down graded ammo on us?
CCI SV works well for me but has the occasional flyer which is frustrating when shooting silhouettes. For comp it's Lapua, but I'm almost out, then RWS which I'm def out (and Shooting Stuff aren't getting any more in until June) then CCI SV, which is cheap :-) and I blame the flyers when I miss lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gillie
hmm so rung a few places in chch and no one seems to stock any kind of target 22lr best anyone has is cci which i already have anyone got any ideas?
When I heard alot of silhouette shooters use it as practice ammo , I started buying it , and yes my experience is its very good for the dollar , at around 3.99 to 4.59 per box of 50rds , its at a price rimfire ammo should be at , it does however have the flyers already mentioned .
Shooters in the US , batch it my weight & rim thickness , and get about 200 good out of 500 approx .
In my Annie 54 , it shoots the same as SK std plus ( which is more than double the price ) , here's a pic of a average group shoot at 100yds , using CCI SV , Annie54 , 16x scope , bipod .
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d9...psff0oe47w.jpg
After reading this thread, I decided I would see if sorting my cci subs would make a blind bit of difference.
A few minutes on the lathe had a sizing block made, and the dial indicator was put to good use (0.01mm graduations).
I started by sorting 50 rounds. There were some real outsiders which were left aside for fouling shots. The rest were broken into groups sorted by 0.01mm increments in rim thickness.
I was pleasantly surprised by the results. Best 5 shot group closed right up to 3.25mm @ 25m. The other sorted groups fared well, but it appears my rifle has a liking for one rim thickness a lot more than the others.
As a side note, I found out why I was having trouble ejecting certain unfired rounds. These were the rounds with the thickest rims, and pushing the projectile into the lands far enough to make it stick. I jotted down the thickness this starts, and will not use those rounds for anything other than fouling shots, or lobbing into a 10/22 which is not as fussy.
Attachment 49520
Yep - 5 rounds in that hole.
Good to hear it worked out for you Quentin :thumbsup:
My main objective is to eliminate or at least reduce the number of occasional "fliers" I get. and now I have a little match 22LR chamber gauge I will see how much effect sorting by rim thickness is.
It did work out - shame it's such a labour intensive process. Something to save for those days when there is no chance to get out for a shoot.
Anyhow - here's my setup, just in case someone wants to try this themselves.
Attachment 49581
I used to be quite impressed by Winchester T22 in my Brno model 2
have completely changed direction with this rifle and now gone 17hmr, getting similar groups at 100m as i was at 50
I've been using CCI Target in my Annie 1415 M54 (4-12 x 44 set at 10x, bipod), as well as Eley Club.
I'd occasionally have a fail to extract (1-4 per 10/1 card) with the CCI - frustrating, as it ruins your rhythm - and your score.
With the Eley Club - maybe 1 per fortnight.
Shooting 2-3 cards a week.
I've had my best score (99.6) and my worst (89.0) with CCI.
Eley Club has been very consistent - the variation in scores is 98.3 - 94.2. Error is me - the shooter methinks.
Following this thread, I decided to take a random 20 live rounds from each type and cycle these through the the action.
As the Annie chamber is factory cut pretty tight, I was very gentle closing/opening the bolt.
I then compared rifling engagement on the leading edge of the projectile bearing surfaces between the two types.
Comparing two types side by side, I noticed that the CCI showed more rifling engagement on the round bearing surface, than the Eley.
The thing that really stood out for me was the CCI bearing surface was approx. 1mm longer than the Eley.
That is - the rifling marks were engaging more of the CCI projectile bearing surface length than on the Eley projectile.
The cases measured pretty much the same length.
I wonder if anyone else has noticed this before.
Also - thanks to some previous posters, I'll be taking more notice of how 'hard/easy' it is to close the bolt, when shooting a card.
I guess this will help with estimating whether a rim is thicker than some of its brethren, which I'm thinking is making extraction more difficult.
One of my thoughts here is that a thicker rim is not allowing the extractor claw to get over the rim positively and get a secure grip on the rim, making extraction a hit or miss event.
Any more experienced ideas would be appreciated.
My apologies for 'rambling' on so long.
Cheers.
CCI is well known to stick in tight chambers (i.e. anything that isn't a loose as a goose 10\22). They started making it with oversized projectiles so that it shoots better in 10/22's and that make it stick in things like brnos. Good ammo though.
Mmmm.....the thought crosses my mind about 'oversize' CCI bullets.Quote:
Originally Posted by MassiveAttack
Pressure (such as it is in 22 ammo), is peaking a bit higher due to the larger bullet diameter, swelling the case more than usual, causing the 'failure to extract' phenomenon.
It may take a couple-three openings of the bolt, before the fired case comes out - usually just clearing the rifle.
Normal extraction fires the empty case over to the next shooter - sometimes giving him/her a surprise when the case 'taps' them on the shoulder.
Noticed in the last couple of 50 Eley Club, that I've had an occasional CLICK, instead of BANG.
Lift the bolt, close and BANG.
Keeps my sight picture and any reaction to no BANG honest :yaeh am not durnk:
Anyone had this problem?
Normally get BANG every time the trigger is operated correctly.
Cheers
I'm finding some sticking in my new Ruger American Rifle, glad to see it is more likely the CCI and not the Ruger being the problem. Had three out of 100 rounds fail to eject. (so far :()Quote:
Originally Posted by MassiveAttack
Be aware that EVERY .22 rifle will favour one brand of ammo over all others- how do you find that magic brand? Buy a lot of different brands, hold the rifle in exactly the same way for every shot, and experiment! It ain't easy!
Yep Ranger - except the pension doesn't allow too much experimentation.
With CCI last week, shot my very first 100 with 6X's.
Still had a couple of sticky cases that needed some bolt cycling before it came out.
Also noted that the sticky cases usually required more effort to close the bolt.
On the second attempt to extract, opened the bolt very slowly and you could almost 'feel' the case releasing - like dragging a shoe against rough ground.
As the Annie doesn't normally feel like this, can only assume that the case has 'stuck' in the chamber and is literally 'dragging its heels) during the extraction movement.
Wouldn't swap the 'old girl' (and the missus), for something else now :cool:
Have got an old Phillipino made Stirling M1400, for the Win subs that I've been given.
Trouble is - the trigger is crap.
But still shot 92.2 with it a couple of months ago, with an old Jap made 2 1/2X scope, using CCI.
So - other than the sticky extraction issue - am pretty happy with CCI target.
Just bought @Maca49's last brick off him last week.
So got plenty of Eley and CCI to play with.
