Testing light 22's

Hello Gentlemen

I have a 1415-1416 (with a shortened barrel) that is a really sweet little rifle, and it "seems to want to shoot". I have been through many ammo types and found a couple it likes.

I say "seems" because although I can shoot some small groups, there are still too many "strung" shots.

My goal is the "CanadianGunNutz" challenge of 5 groups of 5 shots at 50 yards, all on the same bit of paper - all under 0.5" BUT its not happening yet at least.

I think the main issue is my technique, I've been playing with it and can "move" the point of impact with different holds and hold weight. It seems to most like a minimal hold and shot almost free recoil (or what I understand to be free recoil). I am shooting from a very solid bench only in perfect wind conditions.

You wisdom on how to rest, bag and hold such a rifle to achieve best results would be appreciated - or anything else I might have missed, like maybe I should be using a bipod??

@mudgripz and others . . . . .

Thanks
Foster

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Hello Gentlemen

I have a 1415-1416 (with a shortened barrel) that is a really sweet little rifle, and it "seems to want to shoot". I have been through many ammo types and found a couple it likes.

I say "seems" because although I can shoot some small groups, there are still too many "strung" shots.

My goal is the "CanadianGunNutz" challenge of 5 groups of 5 shots at 50 yards, all on the same bit of paper - all under 0.5" BUT its not happening yet at least.

I think the main issue is my technique, I've been playing with it and can "move" the point of impact with different holds and hold weight. It seems to most like a minimal hold and shot almost free recoil (or what I understand to be free recoil). I am shooting from a very solid bench only in perfect wind conditions.

You wisdom on how to rest, bag and hold such a rifle to achieve best results would be appreciated - or anything else I might have missed, like maybe I should be using a bipod??

@mudgripz and others . . . . .

Thanks
Foster

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1st of all you need to be inside...even with flags (I assume you have good ones) outside is very very difficult

You can achieve itoutside but yes its hard and you need completely still conditions. Have had several basic sporter 22s that have or could meet that condition on our outdoor range, but you need everything right to get it. In rimfire bench tests I usually shot four 5 shot groups, not 5, but have no doubt the rifles could continue for another group. Some obvious thoughts that work off bench for me..

You definitely need some luck with your ammo batch - no fliers or variation. You need to be seeing perfectly - and that for me means not before 10-11am - don't ask me why. I usually use a small sandbag set and spend time getting it exactly into position. Body position will vary depending on your bench/table etc. Then its all about positional pressures - firm to the shoulder but zero pressure compensating in any hold direction. If it ain't balanced don't shoot. Try to move minimally between shots - as little disruption as possible. Watch your breathing - I often shoot in first few seconds of the outbreath. And be very conscious of parallax as you settle into shooting position - depending on scope. Take a little time to position scope into center of that 1" dot out at 50m, and get feel, the sight of precisely quartering it with crosshairs. It can come down to hold balance, the ounces of pressure, the milimeter precision quartering the dots.

Foster it seems to me that free recoil with minimal contact is the likeliest to achieve best groups. But an alternative is to try (heresy to some) the big tight fitting front bag with and without a hand gently resting on the scope or knox form if open sights. ‘The Real Gunsmith’ on Patreon/YouTube demonstrates it quite succinctly. Horses for courses and trial and error, frustrating when we’re also dealing with other variables like wind and ammo quality. BTW you’re welcome to a brick of the Norma if you can get it to you from Auckland.

Hey - Thanks for all the input guys, I changed scopes to a 4-14 AO I have to gain a bit more magnification. I shoot at home so can whip out when there is NO wind and have at it, a great luxury

I got some advice off Rimfire Central to try a hold with the fore-end rested and downward pressure from underneath with the left hand and it seems to be working - so your advice @HandH is probly not far off either and I'll try it.

I'm sure my groups are getting a bit more consistent, they are now hovering pretty reliably round the 0.7" mark with CCI Std Target. When I'm satisfied I'm dead consistent vizaviz shooting the rifle I'll go back to using the expensive match ammo I have. I sorta think that I don't need the most accurate ammo to make this challenge, I need the most consistent so I don't have ammo fliers.

well I would if anyone would associate with me - besides @Kiwi-Hunter & co, oh and there are a few others

Have a balanced hold that does not drift when you close your eyes, prone with sling (ground is less wobbly than most tables!), grip with handshake strength, push firmly into shoulder, breathe halfway out and hold, slowly squeeze trigger, follow through.

I would not be expecting extreme accuracy from the Anschutz 1415/16. Gunsmith friend had one and it was consistent with grouping around 0.7" at 50m from memory, but not outstanding. I think it is a rifle from the Savage/Anschutz collaboration period - am unsure which company made which parts:

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/forum...d.php?t=370469

My experience of Savage standard barrel Mark 2s on range was good but not great - consistent grouping around the 0.7" at 50m - same as mate's experience with his 1415/16. 1415 appears a basic little rifle but no Annie 54. If you're after consistent sub 0.5" groups across 5 consecutive groups for your challenge it may not be the rifle. (results will vary with different examples)

This one is marked 1415-1416, there have been a million Annie model variations but I believe it is a different era to the 1415/16's . . . .

It is trying to shoot. I got up early (zero to a tiny bit of wind) and shot groups. Tried a new technique - bipod loaded against a really big sack of sand on the bench. The CCI went a little better than it had been going so switched up a gear to Eley Club. First group with it was 0.14 (yup a true one holer) and after 3 additional groups I was sitting on an average of exactly 0.5 for the 4 groups. Fifth one blew out but I'm pretty confident now that with good ammo, a lot of concentration and a teeny weeny bit of luck I can make the challenge (5 groups all under 0.5").

Next sessions will try Eley Edge and Eley Match (both of which it looked like it would shoot with in early testing - its not real fussy for a .22)

That is good shooting...keep it up. Yes my cobber's Annie 1415/1416? was an average shooter but have not tried one myself. I know little about the production variation details with Annies using Savage model 34/65 components etc. Some research reading for somebody...

I tested another one a few years ago, I don't recall exactly what model it was but it had the true 64 action and a decent trigger - it had done a fair bit of work but was in nice condition. Didn't shoot that well and I gave it back to the shop. Knowing what I know now I'd have cleaned it differently. The design of the Anschutz sporter crown is supposedly prone to getting a crusty formation (crusty crown) and it plays merry hell with accuracy but is easily fixed . . . but the current one is as new so thats not an issue just now.

I have had great success with CCI-subs (if you havent already tried them ), in .22's that only shot 'okay'. It turned a Zastava I foolishly-sold, into a laser

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Originally Posted by rewa

I have had great success with CCI-subs (if you havent already tried them ), in .22's that only shot 'okay'. It turned a Zastava I foolishly-sold, into a laser

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Yup - tried CCI subs and I use them in several 22's, including my Unique 22 semi, which shoots them better than any other hollowpoint I've found. I'm currently using CCI Target (pretty much a solid sub) as a benchmark for testing changes and warming up. The problem with CCI subs is about 1-in-10 to 2-in-10 are out of spec. You'll find that they shoot some really nice groups, but over more than 10 or so rounds you get fliers, which makes shooting 5 groups to count on the same page pretty much impossible

If you are buying Eley ammo you can check its performance on the Eley Lot analyser web sight here https://www.myeley.com/lot-analyser , Just enter the batch (lot) number and it should come up with a series of groups shot through 4 different test barrels so you can judge how good your ammo might be. This is not definitive but just an indication of what you could expect. Eley have recently in the last year or two changed they way they display the lot/batch numbers on the boxes of target ammo, they used to include the speed which was helpful when selecting ammo that might shoot well in your rifle, but have now stopped that.

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Originally Posted by skams

If you are buying Eley ammo you can check its performance on the Eley Lot analyser web sight here https://www.myeley.com/lot-analyser , Just enter the batch (lot) number and it should come up with a series of groups shot through 4 different test barrels so you can judge how good your ammo might be. This is not definitive but just an indication of what you could expect. Eley have recently in the last year or two changed they way they display the lot/batch numbers on the boxes of target ammo, they used to include the speed which was helpful when selecting ammo that might shoot well in your rifle, but have now stopped that.

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Hey - Thanks for that, its a fascinating exercise to see what the ammo you have did, I learnt a lot from it. Mainly that .22 ammo is even more variable than I'd thought. The results from the ammo lots I have make a bit of a mockery of some of the accuracy claims made by folks on the interweb (unless they are lucky enough to be able to beat the laws of statistics!) Its also a learning experience from the point of view of learning how one can analyse accuracy statically.

Hence why some precision enthusiasts are switching to PCP air rifles - frustrated with the lottery of rimfire even with top end rifles and ammo.
But it might be less interesting...

If anyone has some Eley Tenex boxes about I'd sure appreciate the lot codes so I can see how it compares (with what I have) on the Lot-analyser . . . .

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Originally Posted by Tentman

If anyone has some Eley Tenex boxes about I'd sure appreciate the lot codes so I can see how it compares (with what I have) on the Lot-analyser . . . .

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Sorry but the 2 batches of Tenex I have are too old to feature but from memory they didn't group test in my Target rifle as well as some of the batches of Match that I had at the time so consequently I don't buy much Tenex these days as it is difficult to justify the extra expense. Tenex currently advertised at $260 per 500 (but no stock) & Match $195 per 500 retail. However here are some batches of Match that I have; 1018-06210, 1018-03315, 1017-06262 & 1016-05290.

Batch 1018-03315 is my favorite batch, group testing the best in my rifle which concurs with the factory test.

Also of note, 1016-05290 produced 2 distinctive groups in one of the factory test barrels which might suggest they had problems with that batch test

Tent - just a thought. You may be better to adjust your accuracy challenge. This american 5 groups of 5 shots challenge needs half a box of ammo. As such the challenge is a test of ammunition consistency as much as it is a test of rifle accuracy - which you're actually after.

Comps long finished for me, but as a rimfire hobbyist have still benched 80-100 sporter 22s in recent years. And I'm confident I get a very good picture of rifle performance with three or four consecutive 5 shot groups at 50, and perhaps three or four 3 or 5 shot groups at 100m. This focuses test back more onto rifle - and you - and less on ammo quality.

Some of the very sharp standard barrel everyday hunter rimfires:
A Marlin 60 DL semiauto: four 5 shot groups at 50m - average 0.29"
A Marlin 60DLX semiauto: four 5 shot groups at 50m - average 0.39"
A Weihrauch HW60J in 22 WMR: three groups at 50m - average 0.35"

At 100m - a Norinco Em332 with four 3 shot consecutive groups - average 0.6"

I am very satisfied I got a clear picture of rifle accuracy with just 3-4 groups. More rounds means greater chance of ammo error - the dreaded bang bang pop!

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Originally Posted by mudgripz

Tent - just a thought. You may be better to adjust your accuracy challenge. This american 5 groups of 5 shots challenge needs half a box of ammo. As such the challenge is a test of ammunition consistency as much as it is a test of rifle accuracy - which you're actually after.

Comps long finished for me, but as a rimfire hobbyist have still benched 80-100 sporter 22s in recent years. And I'm confident I get a very good picture of rifle performance with three or four consecutive 5 shot groups at 50, and perhaps three or four 3 or 5 shot groups at 100m. This focuses test back more onto rifle - and you - and less on ammo quality.

Some of the very sharp standard barrel everyday hunter rimfires:
A Marlin 60 DL semiauto: four 5 shot groups at 50m - average 0.29"
A Marlin 60DLX semiauto: four 5 shot groups at 50m - average 0.39"
A Weihrauch HW60J in 22 WMR: three groups at 50m - average 0.35"

At 100m - a Norinco Em332 with four 3 shot consecutive groups - average 0.6"

I am very satisfied I got a clear picture of rifle accuracy with just 3-4 groups. More rounds means greater chance of ammo error - the dreaded bang bang pop!

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Mudgripz I took your advice a few years ago and ditched 10/22 and bought the marlin model 60 deluxe.
It is an amazingly accurate .22.
I have the lithgow in bolt action and rate that as well .
The hornady subs seem to go pretty well in them which is just the cci rebranded.
I have been shooting them out to 390 m and 277m with surprising results to be fair.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by mudgripz

Tent - just a thought. You may be better to adjust your accuracy challenge. This american 5 groups of 5 shots challenge needs half a box of ammo. As such the challenge is a test of ammunition consistency as much as it is a test of rifle accuracy - which you're actually after.

Comps long finished for me, but as a rimfire hobbyist have still benched 80-100 sporter 22s in recent years. And I'm confident I get a very good picture of rifle performance with three or four consecutive 5 shot groups at 50, and perhaps three or four 3 or 5 shot groups at 100m. This focuses test back more onto rifle - and you - and less on ammo quality.

Some of the very sharp standard barrel everyday hunter rimfires:
A Marlin 60 DL semiauto: four 5 shot groups at 50m - average 0.29"
A Marlin 60DLX semiauto: four 5 shot groups at 50m - average 0.39"
A Weihrauch HW60J in 22 WMR: three groups at 50m - average 0.35"

At 100m - a Norinco Em332 with four 3 shot consecutive groups - average 0.6"

I am very satisfied I got a clear picture of rifle accuracy with just 3-4 groups. More rounds means greater chance of ammo error - the dreaded bang bang pop!

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I've long been curious as to some of the claims made on the interweb regards .22 rf accuracy. The three or four consecutive five shot groups you mention are a valid test rather than a lot of the cherry picked results one see's mentioned, however a challenge is a challenge and the fact that over 100 rifle/shooter/ammo combinations have achieved the challenge attests to its validity. The wee Annie I am currently shooting follows a very long line of 22's I've shot over the years a that I felt were pretty accurate, and it has produced "some" very good groups. There is no doubt that by the 3 or 4 consecutive groups test it is an accurate rifle - 0.37" by that measure (0.14, 0.73, 0.26) .

However when Eley themselves say that their finest "Tenex" ammo (one particular batch) shot across 4 machine test barrels produces a best 10 shot group of 0.45 and an average of 0.62 (from that barrel, measured to the outside rather than centre to centre in the US benchrest manner) then one realizes there are rifles "claimed" as accurate then there is measured accuracy - and that should be repeatable!

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Originally Posted by Tentman

I've long been curious as to some of the claims made on the interweb regards .22 rf accuracy. The three or four consecutive five shot groups you mention are a valid test rather than a lot of the cherry picked results one see's mentioned, however a challenge is a challenge and the fact that over 100 rifle/shooter/ammo combinations have achieved the challenge attests to its validity. The wee Annie I am currently shooting follows a very long line of 22's I've shot over the years a that I felt were pretty accurate, and it has produced "some" very good groups. There is no doubt that by the 3 or 4 consecutive groups test it is an accurate rifle - 0.37" by that measure (0.14, 0.73, 0.26) .

However when Eley themselves say that their finest "Tenex" ammo (one particular batch) shot across 4 machine test barrels produces a best 10 shot group of 0.45 and an average of 0.62 (from that barrel, measured to the outside rather than centre to centre in the US benchrest manner) then one realizes there are rifles "claimed" as accurate then there is measured accuracy - and that should be repeatable!

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You have to shoot inside to get consistent accuracy (tiny groups) from any 22LR.

If you can achieve that outside, they would have been even smaller inside no mater how calm it was outside.

Ask any centrefire benchrest shooter if they like shooting in clam (no wind) there is only one answer to that "I would rather not" or words to that effect ......

Handloaders in Chch has a 100m dugout channel which helps alot with wind. There this morning and while flag still on pole gadgetman shot in my new Marlin 22WMR stainless heavy barrel - group at 0.28". Hmmm..

https://www.bergara.online/us/blog/n...yhG87f9fJCX1YI

Not light though...

https://www.bergara.online/us/rifles...Jap-qN4GO6raQA

Wind here was very very slight but filled in just a triffle in the 40 minutes I was shooting . . . warmed up then shot two runs with my best ammo and got averages of 0.49 and 0.51 for 5 groups of 5 shots, but still with a couple of the groups over the 0.5" mark, so close but no cigar (yet).

Cattle might have "adjusted" the bipod stop on my bench as it wasn't quite square (only noticed after I finished of course) and there was a bit of tension on my position.

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Originally Posted by Tentman

Yup - tried CCI subs and I use them in several 22's, including my Unique 22 semi, which shoots them better than any other hollowpoint I've found. I'm currently using CCI Target (pretty much a solid sub) as a benchmark for testing changes and warming up. The problem with CCI subs is about 1-in-10 to 2-in-10 are out of spec. You'll find that they shoot some really nice groups, but over more than 10 or so rounds you get fliers, which makes shooting 5 groups to count on the same page pretty much impossible

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Originally Posted by mudgripz

Handloaders in Chch has a 100m dugout channel which helps alot with wind. There this morning and while flag still on pole gadgetman shot in my new Marlin 22WMR stainless heavy barrel - group at 0.28". Hmmm..

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Nice using gadgetman, how many shots did it take to shoot in? I had an Aussie barrel which came with instructions for how many and the cleaning between.
The replacement of it! I didn't bother and after 10 shots which were not all holding hands it then dialled in to 1 hole.
KH

Thats good kiwi .. Yes damaged shoulder at the moment so gave gadget the job.

Took about 7-8 rounds really - though he played around with few more. Boresighted scope first - at 50 not 25 which made it quick. Then few clicks and 0.28" group inside the dot. Then left it shot in 1" high . Hornady 30gr VMax drop chart I saw showed point blank at 100m means 0.83" high at 50m so good to go - no holdovers out to 110 or so. Keen to try it.

Has a newish 4-16AO Tasco Worldclass on it - good scope actually for a rimfire. Not too heavy, clear on 16x which many aren't, and 16AO allows very precise quartering of the dot down range. Whole Marlin 982VS stainless setup with heavy barrel, spare mag, 4-16AO etc for $480 all up - mmmmm :)

Very nice shooting Tent - you're close to achieving your challenge.

Yes mudgripz, have had a couple of the Japanese world-class and the glass was and is good.
Good price is always pleasing, hope to see a picture in pestie post.
I meant to say with the replacement barrel I don't know how many the gunsmith shot to test it.
Yes gadgetman would enjoy plinking away the day if you let him, if i remember he's a little damaged as well.
Anyway between you both job done.
Weather has held up the .22 challenge, we had a road trip to Wanaka today and I picked up my anniepaxarms !so keen to see where it's hitting in the next no wind opportunity.
Thought on the world class, keep the optic ring at the back tight! I had one let go there, from memory it was the same configuration 4-16.the eye piece I could take and shake, it never held zero again.
KH

Will do thanks...