Wind in the Mountains

A few months back I attended the Gunslinger shoot at Tekapo which I would encourage anyone that shoots long range to do next event .While there I had my arse handed to me due to wind reading in the Hills just plain has me screwed a few times .

At one stage from up in the hills looking down into the valley I thought Id take advantage of a wind flag a mile away which was blowing up into the valley -well crap on me all day if the wind wasn't actually coming from the other direction shown by the flag. We were kinda tucked behind a hill and didn't have clear air -well I thought anyway .

Some guys got it right this day and many were left wondering on many of the targets,and I say this day as through experience the next day may have been shot completely differently by all .

A good lesson in Humble pie eating that I don't enjoy that food nor want to eat it at the next event .

Some of you shot this big terrain a lot I am sure and it would be good to here your thoughts on wind reading big country as it isnt as easy as just putting your wet figure in the air and saying its coming from there .Also one must understand this was a contest under pressure conditions to shoot -not a all day shoot one think about after a cup of tea shoot another
The big country shooting long range is quite different from shooting many of my spots at long range and I have shot distance and won a few times in comps so I am not a complete raving fool as some might think LOL:ORLY:

This is probably of no real use to you for long range but il blab anyway.

If say you are on or near the top of a ridge that the wind is blowing over the deer below you "downwind" will usually not get your scent.
This is because where they are its blowing up towards you. Its like water flowing over a rock in a river with the eddy behind it.
Then there is the catabatic in calm conditions and im sure you would be aware of this too. up from around 9-10am and down from5-7pm depending on season and north or south gfacing etc
As you get the shift from down to up in the morning in big valleys you quite often get a period where it is going up from the vally floor(if its in sun of course) but still comming down from the top and some where mid slope its mixing and you never know whether its going to go down or up in this region for a hour or so till it sorts its shit out.

A HUNTERS PERSPECTIVE

long range steel I guess fire and correct:D

Now you can start to understand why some of us are moving away from the "little" calibres & into the "bigger" ones.
There is a big gain to be had from shooting a heavy high BC bullet over a light high BC bullet.
The worse the conditions the bigger the advantage.
To me it appears to be a little more gained than the ballistic tables typically show.
If shooting at game that is an important advantage.
In the hills it is nigh-on impossible to pick the wind accurately once you start to get out a way.
In little old NZ that is what we have, that is how it is.
In the States they can be so far from the sea & a hill/mountain that we can't even begin to comprehend the conditions.
Wind at "pick a value" coming from "pick an angle" constantly for hours/days makes things a lot easier.
That is why you hear the term "canyon country" used, NZ is mostly canyon country.

Recent advances in projectile, stock & muzzle brake designs, to name a few, have made the "bigger" calibres even more inviting :cool:

Yes the bigger calibers a usually much better with BCs for sure although the 180gr isnt light -I presume KG your talking of the even bigger cals .The mountains is certainly a new pellet of conditions to come to grips with and thoughts are read with interests -I am not a hunter bar pheasant and quail .It would be good to grow some experiences here on the thread of conditions face by many of you that shoot the hills a lot as one grows abetter perspective on what one can expect .cheers Boys

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Originally Posted by el borracho

Yes the bigger calibers a usually much better with BCs for sure although the 180gr isnt light -I presume KG your talking of the even bigger cals .The mountains is certainly a new pellet of conditions to come to grips with and thoughts are read with interests -I am not a hunter bar pheasant and quail .It would be good to grow some experiences here on the thread of conditions face by many of you that shoot the hills a lot as one grows abetter perspective on what one can expect .cheers Boys

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The .284 180 is indeed light in high BC terms.
The new .284 195 Berger when it arrives will be exciting for the .284 guys but it still will be light as far as shooting way out there at game.
The other small issue is will it expand way out there ?
If it is a little hard as the new Bergers appear to be the whole point of a high BC projectile becomes an issue if they don't work well on game as they slow down.
The .308 230 Otms seem to be working well on game, I'm not sure about the 230 Hybrids can't find out much about them, I will be shooting some this weekend.
The .338 300 Otm & Hybrids are working well on game.
I would assume that the yet to be released .375 350 will be much the same, the BC may not be startling but we will see the .375 is growing stronger & stronger :cool:

I haven't done much testing with the CE .375, 400 & 425s on game yet but what I have seen has impressed me, the sheer size & energy alone seems to do a lot of damage.

Ppppprrraaaaaapppppppff!!!!

Sorry, wrong kinda wind

We will be using tanks to shoot animals soon as everything will be to small

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KiwiGreg , I must say for me the 180 gr Berger does the trick as as you may realize I am not an animal hunter as such but shoot steel so look mainly for a good wind bucker and not something that wind expand and kill quick .

In saying given the subject matter here in question in this blog is really about what happens in them thar Hills and valleys with the wind and not about bullets that enable us to beat our inadequacy of wind calling .High BC bullets are great for many reasons including needing less elevation on your scope ! but we have to cover the important skills first and by far for a competent long range shooter as many of us {are -can be -would like to be -think we are -and should be } is being able to know what is happening out there at any time of the day and know and understand what can happen at different times in the day .
Plenty of you in the south shoot these big ranges in the hills and can share your experiences-let here em good bad and ugly

Some good points being made here but I think a great example of how a heavier and higher BC bullet will give you an advantage is how F Class is slowly moving to heavier and higher BC bullets eg 7mm 180gr Berger hybrid in a 284 up to 7mm-300 WSM. The small cals do great until the wind really starts to move around and become very hard to read, then even a very good wind reader with a small cal will struggle against an average wind reader using a bigger higher BC bullet.

It seems most guys are using the 180grBerger nowadays in Fclass at the top level -the last winner at Trenthem had a rifle built by Greg Duley with a 180GR Berger in mind .

I hope we get a few more thought of mountain shooting on this thread

Now I'm a bit confused???

I thought that weight was irrelevant, i.e if two rifles fire projectiles of different weights, but both with the same BC and the same velocity they would both hit in the same place (windage and elevation)?

Have I got this wrong?

kj

no,you got it right

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Originally Posted by el borracho

no,you got it right

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Really? Yes if they maintained equal velocity throughout their flight but they dont.


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R93 same BC ,same velocity why wouldnt they stay the same?

For my on interest I had a play on a Ballistic programme, I entered in some numbers purely to generate some info to compare my thoughts on bullet weight playing no role in beating the wind.

I used these figures for below:

Using a 300grain 0.338 bullet with a BC of 0.66 and a velocity of 2820fps

1000 -215.8 -20.6 21.5 2.1 2268.9 2.08 4571.4 1.186 0 0



And this time using a 160grain .284 bullet with a BC of 0.66 and a velocity of 2820fps

1000 -215.8 -20.6 21.5 2.1 2268.9 2.08 1828.6 1.186 0 0


Both exactly the same, bar the energy figures. Velocity, drop, drift etc are all the same, so from my reckoning bullet weight has nothing to add as far as beating the wind goes, its simply comes down to BC & velocity (time in flight).


kj

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Originally Posted by el borracho

R93 same BC ,same velocity why wouldnt they stay the same?

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Physics.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by kimjon

For my on interest I had a play on a Ballistic programme, I entered in some numbers purely to generate some info to compare my thoughts on bullet weight playing no role in beating the wind.

I used these figures for below:

Using a 300grain 0.338 bullet with a BC of 0.66 and a velocity of 2820fps

1000-215.8-20.621.52.12268.92.084571.41.18600



And this time using a 160grain .284 bullet with a BC of 0.66 and a velocity of 2820fps

1000-215.8-20.621.52.12268.92.081828.61.18600


Both exactly the same, bar the energy figures. Velocity, drop, drift etc are all the same, so from my reckoning bullet weight has nothing to add as far as beating the wind goes, its simply comes down to BC & velocity (time in flight).


kj

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My shooter program must be fucked. I got an moa difference over 700 yrds between a 130 and 160 gr .264 All I Changed was weight.
The heavier pill will maintain velocity better than a lighter pill. Therefore there must be a difference somewhere no???


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Your doing something wrong R93. The only difference is downrange energy. If they've got the same BC they'll follow the same trajectory. Ballistic FTE just confirmed it for me.

Your obviously limited to G1 bc. Worthless beyond approx 500.
I didnt do anything wrong. I changed the weight only.
Doesnt matter as it would not happen in real the world anyway.
To many variables too mention.


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I used the G7 drag model. Maybe you'll trust these guys: exterior ballistics

From that page:

Relationships between Different Bullets with the Same Ballistic Coefficient

Suppose that two bullets of different weight or different caliber have the same ballistic coefficient; how do the ballistics of the two bullets compare?

To start with, assume that the two bullets are fired with the same muzzle velocity. This gives a common basis for a generalized comparison. Since the bullets have equal C’s , they have equal drag decelerations, and they slow down equally fast. Consequently, if the two bullets start with equal muzzle velocities, at any range they will have equal velocities, equal times of flight, and equal drops. Unless they have equal weights, they will have different energies, however. Since energy is proportional to weight, the heavier bullet will have proportionately more energy at any range.

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Originally Posted by R93

Physics.


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physics is correct -different weight but ''same drag'' and same speed means they go to the same point and arrive at same time

I accept in theory they should match.
But its just that theory. No one has been able to prove it by firing.
Again my ballistic calc must be fucked as it shows a difference at ranges beyond 700.

Edit: No it doesnt, it required a decimal input that I missed. Apologies everyone, It is the same, in azimuth and elevation :oh noes:


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Some people will argue anything rather than admit they're wrong ;)

Dude, sort your calc before doing too much LR.

No worries. I will.
I happy to admit I am wrong, anytime, as I have in this thread. I am sure most people in this place would agree I take the piss out of myself more than anything.
I dont get off on proving or thinking I have proved someone is wrong about anything. You obviously do. In this instance however, can you provide a real world example to prove your right?


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Send me some projectiles with the same BCs in 7mm and 30 cal and I'll happily load some up and do it if you need that. Personally I'm not getting off on it, just pointing out what is obvious to anyone who cares to accept logic (in addition to external ballistics and simple science). Lets leave it be shall we :)

Why do you have to be so insulting?
Does it make you feel superior in some way?
If I am wrong so be it. I am wrong.
It happens.



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LOL, dude, I'm not being insulting. Catch ya later :)

Wrong again...... bugger! Condescending perhaps? If it was so obvious, simple and logical, as you put it, it is amusing you needed to confirm it on your ballistic calc.;)



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we all get to share in the pie at some stage R93 ,it aint exclusive -an i f-n hate humble pie

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Originally Posted by el borracho

we all get to share in the pie at some stage R93 ,it aint exclusive -an i f-n hate humble pie

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I eat my fair share of it El B.
Especially where the cook is concerned. I get it force fed.


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What's wrong with humble pie? Having someone kick you reasonably out of the comfort zone is a very effective way of learning. Just making mistakes without understanding why does the opposite.

I would suggest to start shooting without your Kestrels and leave ballistic computers in the study room. Stick to the basic and free handout I've given and you'll see the pattern for mountain shooting soon enough.
Film where we shoot in windy mountains. (The lessons given here was more detailed and handson than the basic course on NZ). It doesn't really tell how as the aim here was to show factory gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzzouI0BBrA

Other than that, KiwiGreg pretty much said it. Re-read his post so I don't have to re-type. :D

What a beautiful place to practice and fine tune drop info, almost made me wont to go out myself;)

..."almost"...
;)

... I have to do better then! :D