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Thread: [B]Final Police Consultation Roadshow, Dunedin 29 June 2018.[/B]

  1. #1
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    [B]Final Police Consultation Roadshow, Dunedin 29 June 2018.[/B]

    Final Firearms Consultation Meeting. Victoria Hotel, Dunedin June 29th, 2018. 1400-1530.

    Fitting, perhaps, that we should have the final consultation of this roadshow in Dunedin, near Aramoana. Whatever side of any debate you stand, Aramoana had it all:
    - A gun owner mentally ill, unfit to have a firearm,
    - A gun owner who had threatened to kill, improper to have a firearm,
    - An inadequate police response, failing to seize the man's guns --- but who could have imagined???
    - Semi automatic rifles used to kill, and kill, and kill.

    So, Superintendent Mike McIlraith and his group facilitator (both appearing exhausted but still functional) chaired a meeting attended also by our local Arms Officer, Andrea and of course 20-30 shooters and firearms dealers, GC and H&F. Happy to see a couple of female shooters made it. Spoke to one bloke from Central Otago, who had broken his back last year. He had managed to schedule a hospital check the same morning to allow him to attend the meeting. Guess a lot of the others had made great efforts to turn up on a working day.

    Anyway, back to the meeting itself, I had the impression that by now Mike had heard most things before at the earlier meetings, as nothing really seemed to startle him and his facilitator knew quite well in which category to file each issue raised.

    The Arms Act - staying as it is
    In his opening remarks, Mike clarified, “The Government has made it very clear that the [Arms] Act is not going to change.” and that Police has been directed to “Effectively administer the Act”.

    I reflect, that the recent Government redaction of NZ Police recommendations out of an FOI reply, should perhaps be seen in the light of this: as the Government has ruled out touching Firearms Legislation, the Police recommendations have become a non-issue, at least for now.

    Which brings us to effective administration of the Arms Act and feedback provided at the Dunedin Meeting:

    Firearms renewals
    Referees, it was pointed out, are not the most appropriate persons to ask whether the applicant has a criminal history, especially by an employee of the NZ Police! Likewise, it seems questions of mental health should be directed to an applicant's GP. It was suggested that questions asked of referees should be reviewed to be more appropriate.
    Another contributor was shocked that his wife was interviewed with him present, whereas other shooters at their renewal were asked to leave the room when their wifes/partner was interviewed.
    Yet another person objected to cross questioning applied by one interviewer, the same question being repeated in five different ways, making him feel as if he was suspected of some crime.

    Difficulty level of the current exam.
    One contributor though the current exam was too simple, practical handling of guns should be included. Discussion around the correct level centred about the need to be fair to FAL applicants who had no background in firearms, like urban dwellers vs rural. Police wanted firearms owners to get licenses.

    New firearms license application process
    There has apparently been a rush on the “old” course, with 130 attendees recently in Napier!
    The new course will continue to be “about the practical, safe handling of firearms” but with some hands on training. Firearms were currently getting deactivated in preparation for their use in the courses.
    The basic process was...
    1. Initial firearms license application, police vetting etc (applicants cannot just turn up and do the course).
    2. Firearms theory examination based on the seven basic rules of firearms safety. Done at Automobile Association offices like the current driving theory examinations. The test questions will be set at a 12-year old reading level to facilitate most people. A reading assistant will be made available for people with learning difficulties, as for driving theory tests too.
    One shooter, Chaz Forsyth of the MSC, questioned whether colour vision tests could be included but this was not currently planned. I personally thought that would be useful, not so much to bar people from shooting but because it might improve safety if shooters are aware of a personal inability to distinguish certain colours. That said, in low light colour vision is always poor.
    3. Practical course, details to be finalised.

    User Pays
    Mike mentioned under the user pays system, FAL holders currently contribute half a million dollars to the annual 11 million dollar cost of administrating the Firearms Act. He envisaged that in future FAL holders' share would likely increase and Government's share decrease.

    Probationary period for FAL holders.
    Mike thought it a good idea, younger shooters learning from older shooters etc. It is also what we do for Driving Licenses. Someone pointed out probationary licenses have not solved the road death toll.

    Issuing of Permits.
    This system has recently been centralised. Mike, in discussion with some firearms dealers after the meeting, said it would be great to have an online system which automatically approves requests for permits to procure that are in keeping with the applicant's FAL endorsements.

    Customs
    It was suggested Customs and NZ Police should have a better system set up, one dealer felt bad having to again approach the local firearms officer Andrea for yet another letter to get things released that have already been approved.

    Firearms License Numbers
    The old chestnut of replacement FALs which have the same number on them as the original lost one. This contrasts with replacement driving licenses which are always issued with a new number. Mike had obviously looked into this as he indicated it was difficult for IT to implement.

    Firearms License Checks.
    Dealers like Gun City had expressed interest in having a system like TradeMe where it was able to check if a gun license was currently valid. Again the difficulty of stolen licenses with duplicate numbers on their replacements was raised.

    License Renewal Delays
    The ten-yearly renewal process has delays in it. One speaker complained that some FAL holders can be without a valid license for up to six months and thus unable to use their guns or even buy ammunition for them all that time. Last time he decided to start his renewal process three months earlier to avoid this situation, and was told by the Police to go away as they had not yet sent him his reminder letter! He duly insisted.

    Club Ownership of Firearms
    Chaz Forsyth raised the issue of club ownership of firearms. Mike replied that this was not provided for in legislation so was outside the remit of the current meeting, and repeated his opening comment that there was not going to be any legislation change.

    Firearms Storage
    Mike volunteered his understanding that gun storage was to avoid access to guns by casual burglars as well as by children. He stated that even better security helps, but added that targeted burglaries were difficult to defend against – “the right tools and nothing matters.” A shooter himself, he had had to upgrade his own storage.

    Deceased Firearms Owner – what to do with the guns?
    Recommended take to a dealer or to a license holder. Police also an option but guns would likely end up getting destroyed in that case.

    Firearms theft
    Mike stated that the bulk of burglarised people cannot give Police the make, model and serial number of their lost firearms. Ouch!
    In response to a question, NZ Police does not have a dedicated database of stolen firearms.


    And finally. Firearms in Unattended Vehicles! The old chestnut.
    Mike was reluctant to promise any written police guidance on the matter of firearms left in unattended vehicles. His own advice, and he stressed this was his own interpretation and not law, was that unattended means guns left in a car overnight somewhere like in the Octagon [Dunedin City Centre]. It did not apply to leaving a firearm covered in a car and going for a toilet, pie & coffee break -, even better with the firearm bolt taken with you.

    And then Cordite hit the road.
    Guns don't kill people - drivers do.

    The Hedgehog Preservation Society

  2. #2
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    thanks for your report mate . Good to see a good turnout there.
    Cats have nine lives-which makes them ideal for experimentation...

  3. #3
    Member Beavis's Avatar
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    And soon Mike will be off to the UK to see how they do it...

  4. #4
    SiB
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    I was at the Invercargill meeting and your observations match mine.

    I think our shared concern for the recidivist offender/criminal use of firearms was covered by one comment; “the courts determine the consequences-talk to your MP about sentencing”.

    And I think we should. The media remain focussed on how bad guns are- let’s ensure how bad some folks are (who are NOT licenced etc) is also kept in the spotlight.

    I for one, feel that the roadshow was sincere, and at the very least it should lead to improved “customer service experiences” for us legitimate firearms users
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    Member Jexla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiB View Post
    I was at the Invercargill meeting and your observations match mine.

    I think our shared concern for the recidivist offender/criminal use of firearms was covered by one comment; “the courts determine the consequences-talk to your MP about sentencing”.

    And I think we should. The media remain focussed on how bad guns are- let’s ensure how bad some folks are (who are NOT licenced etc) is also kept in the spotlight.

    I for one, feel that the roadshow was sincere, and at the very least it should lead to improved “customer service experiences” for us legitimate firearms users
    Trust me, it was as insincere as can be. It was case of him being FORCED to hold the meetings as he'd be told by the minister to do so. I suspect that the "improved customer service experiences" will at some point come to fruition with things like online applications etc. However these are not our biggest issues as a community, just because you apply online doesn't mean they won't continue to decline, refuse applications with zero legal ability to. Makes no difference if they tell you to fuck off in a letter or an email.
    csmiffy and rewa like this.

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    Thankyou very much for your report Cordite. I am surprised at the annual cost for administration being $11,000000 and cost recovery only $500,000. Was there any indication as to how costs might be split in the future? Full recovery would mean licence holders paying more than twice the 'once every ten year' renewal fee every year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    And soon Mike will be off to the UK to see how they do it...
    interestingly despite being of less population you are more likely to be murdered in london than new york !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jexla View Post
    Trust me, it was as insincere as can be. It was case of him being FORCED to hold the meetings as he'd be told by the minister to do so. I suspect that the "improved customer service experiences" will at some point come to fruition with things like online applications etc. However these are not our biggest issues as a community, just because you apply online doesn't mean they won't continue to decline, refuse applications with zero legal ability to. Makes no difference if they tell you to fuck off in a letter or an email.
    Govt consultation of this type is a farce and lip service. They do this to show that they will listen to us, but generally the die has been cast and they do what they like.
    Unless something really consistent and majorly inflammatory comes up they will pretty much do what they like.

  9. #9
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jexla View Post
    Trust me, it was as insincere as can be. It was case of him being FORCED to hold the meetings as he'd be told by the minister to do so. I suspect that the "improved customer service experiences" will at some point come to fruition with things like online applications etc. However these are not our biggest issues as a community, just because you apply online doesn't mean they won't continue to decline, refuse applications with zero legal ability to. Makes no difference if they tell you to fuck off in a letter or an email.
    @Jexla,

    Some reluctance? No doubt. After all, NZ Police recently had their recommendations snubbed (which likelier than not included a restriction of full capacity magazines folding stocks, etc. to E-cat licensees, from the context in the redacted FOI document). It would in essence be an attempt to repair the Arms Act, but it is actually too flawed to fix, cf. some bolt action rifles accepting AR magazines, etc. Police in turn had their blue noses rubbed into their own mess, the admin of the Arms Act. Mike Loder et al seems to have gotten through to the Police Minister, through a steady dripping.

    Insincerity? I found Mike himself congruent, after all his agenda is simply the tidying of Police admin of the Arms Act, and he knew not to get into politics - basically a cop who knows what is and isn't his role.

    As for the upper police bureaucracy, and the supposedly independent Police Association with its misinformatics ... I agree their wish list will be unchanged, so keep talking to your local MP.
    timattalon likes this.
    Guns don't kill people - drivers do.

    The Hedgehog Preservation Society

  10. #10
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moa Hunter View Post
    Thankyou very much for your report Cordite. I am surprised at the annual cost for administration being $11,000000 and cost recovery only $500,000. Was there any indication as to how costs might be split in the future? Full recovery would mean licence holders paying more than twice the 'once every ten year' renewal fee every year.
    @Moa Hunter

    No further details, how would he know anyway? It is reasonable though to push the other way - lifetime license, as no renewal applications are currently turned down! Talk of unnecessary admin! I guess fees would also be recoverable from import permitting, etc.
    Guns don't kill people - drivers do.

    The Hedgehog Preservation Society

  11. #11
    Member Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csmiffy View Post
    Govt consultation of this type is a farce and lip service. They do this to show that they will listen to us, but generally the die has been cast and they do what they like.
    Unless something really consistent and majorly inflammatory comes up they will pretty much do what they like.
    Yup - see the WARO submissions DOC are asking for. They have generously given us till this coming Tuesday to make a submission.

  12. #12
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    Yup - see the WARO submissions DOC are asking for. They have generously given us till this coming Tuesday to make a submission.
    @Beavis

    If important, would you mind posting a link.
    Guns don't kill people - drivers do.

    The Hedgehog Preservation Society

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordite View Post
    @Beavis

    If important, would you mind posting a link.
    https://www.doc.govt.nz/get-involved...ndations-2018/

    Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk
    Cordite likes this.

  14. #14
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Russian 22. View Post
    https://www.doc.govt.nz/get-involved...ndations-2018/

    Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk
    @Beavis,

    Can't see how you can feed back when for example there is no reasons provided for why particular areas are "not permitted" for WARO.

    BTW does anyone use nicotine darts these days?
    Guns don't kill people - drivers do.

    The Hedgehog Preservation Society

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    Nope. Hate lung darts.

    Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk
    Cordite likes this.

 

 

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