Bolt security

The wording of required security refers to "firearm" .
But many owners,like me, feel that a rifle without the bolt is not dangerous and may warrant few security precautions.

In particular, preventing a firearm from being stolen from a vehicle while popping in to pay for petrol or at the public convenience could be achieved 100% by taking the bolt with you. Yet somehow I feel the police may not be sympathetic.

Is a person guilty of incorrect storage if an unsecured rifle is stolen but not the bolt ?

Notwithstanding that a rifle without a bolt is just an odd shaped cricket bat, I think people tend to over think the whole rifle in the car while They fill up with petrol or take a piss thing. As long as the vehicle is locked and the vehicle is under surveillance (e.g. by the CCTV cameras at a service station) and the period of time away from the vehicle is reasonably limited then I don't see why any member of the Police would take exception (that is if they even knew there was a firearm in the vehicle). I have left a firearm in a vehicle under these circumstances literally hundreds of times over the years and most frequently by the air hose between the BP and Burger King in Rotorua.

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

The wording of required security refers to "firearm" .
But many owners,like me, feel that a rifle without the bolt is not dangerous and may warrant few security precautions.

In particular, preventing a firearm from being stolen from a vehicle while popping in to pay for petrol or at the public convenience could be achieved 100% by taking the bolt with you. Yet somehow I feel the police may not be sympathetic.


Is a person guilty of incorrect storage if an unsecured rifle is stolen but not the bolt ?

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Yes. Because a firearm is still a firearm even if it doesn't have the bolt in it. Read the Arms Act.

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Originally Posted by Rushy

Notwithstanding that a rifle without a bolt is just an odd shaped cricket bat, I think people tend to over think the whole rifle in the car while They fill up with petrol or take a piss thing. As long as the vehicle is locked and the vehicle is under surveillance (e.g. by the CCTV cameras at a service station) and the period of time away from the vehicle is reasonably limited then I don't see why any member of the Police would take exception (that is if they even knew there was a firearm in the vehicle). I have left a firearm in a vehicle under these circumstances literally hundreds of times over the years and most frequently by the air hose between the BP and Burger King in Rotorua.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3eb1f72594.jpg is that you there rushy

Thanks for that systolic:

Arms act 1983:

firearm—
(a) means anything from which any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile
can be discharged by force of explosive; and
(b) includes—
anything that has been adapted so that it can be used to discharge a shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile by force of explosive; and
anything which is not for the time being capable of discharging any shot, bullet, missile, or other projectile but which, by its com- pletion or the replacement of any component part or parts or the correction or repair of any defect or defects, would be a firearm within the meaning of paragraph (a) or subparagraph (i); and
anything (being a firearm within the meaning of paragraph (a) or subparagraph (i)) which is for the time being dismantled or parti- ally dismantled; and
any specially dangerous airgun

Since a replacement bolt often can be obtained, even if it's an expensive and long winded process, removing the bolt is, in principle, only a temporary means of inactivating a firearm.

Sorted.

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Originally Posted by MSL

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3eb1f72594.jpg is that you there rushy

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The picture quality is not that great but the colour indicates that it could very well be. Take a drive down there and check. If there is a fat old bugger that answers to the name Rushy and he will sell you his grandmother for a double BK with cheese then I reckon it is highly likely. If there is a box of Waikato on the back seat then Bazinga.

So, looking at the value of a few different precautions we might take:

Locked hard case = C
Remove bolt = B
Gunsafe = S

Safety
Prevent accident or self harm by others
C 4/5; B 4/5; S 5/5

Security
Precaution against theft and criminal use
C 2/5; B 3/5; S 4/5

Legal
Compliance with law
C 0/5; B 0/5; S 5/5

Mechanical
Protection from accidental damage
C 4/5; B 0/5; S 4/5

So, according to 'the letter of the Law', a Timney-trigger, in its wrapper, in the glove-box,...is an unsecured firearm, as it only requires its' other component-parts, to be operational.It would be no-less a firearm part, than say; a shotgun barrel, a shotgun rear-stock and action etc. There appears to be NO discretionary allowance ? Systolic ? I ask, because I often take only my u/o barrels with me, when I pop down to the nearest town (15min). I dont want a shotgun in my vehicle, my "safe" is a bitch to access, and at this time of the year I use said U/O daily...and i KNOW crims Havent got spare barrels for my vintage and very-specific U/O....

Complements of the season to you all. How I feel is that it's gone too far, time that there was a bit more deterrent when the thieving scumbags steel firearms etc. Don't have any stickers on my vehicle advertising I hunt. Have changed from a ute with dog box to SUV. Why do we have to take these measures, what we do is legal.

Tetawa that’s a very good idea. I am very “paranoid” when it comes to people I don’t trust knowing that I have firearms in my possession. If the right “bad guy” knows that you could have a firearms, i guarantee your house will be a higher priority target for him.
As for the law and the police, it all depends on the cop that shows up on the day.
Some of them are firearm owners, hunters and shooters just like we are. Some of them are just he opposite and will throw the boom at you.
Count it a blessing that there are some good ones out there still and the whole system hasn’t been taken over by this new age style of government and policing.

I don't think anyone would try to rob a bank or anyone else with just a trigger, whereas a rifle without a bolt could be used for this purpose.

Yeah that’s right 10-ring they definately can use rifles without the ability to fire a round to rob places and extort people

At times the law is an ass.

So you're on a long trip with your firearms.
You need to go to lunch, for fuel, to the bank.
You can't leave your firearms in the car so you take them in with you.

Somehow they seem to be taking a long time to serve you.
Nek minut it is the AOS who arrive.

I take the pragmatic approach.
Firearms secured and hidden in vehicle separately from ammunition.
Bolts in a backpack that goes with me.
Breaking the law - Yes. Being reasonable - Yes.


Reminds me of a time 3 or 4 years ago when travelling to Picton with my son.
A news report said the police in the area where chasing someone with a "sniper" rifle and 30 rounds of ammo.
We had 3 target rifles capable out to 1000 yards and 1200+ rounds of ammo.
We looked at each other and laughed - as we passed an armed policeman - no need to look here sir.

I can sort of imagine that a bolt might be "completed" by the replacement of a bolt less stolen rifle and the person who supplied it may be prosecuted but, without being a lawyer, it seems probable that " component" would be interpreted as a smaller, removeable, replaceable part, like a trigger.

Provided you somehow lock your weapon to your vehicle (easier in a hard case) then the main risk is that someone steals the whole vehicle. That is why it is the right thing to take your bolt with you into the cafe, even better than leaving it locked into your car.

Has anyone heard of a case where a firearm owner was prosecuted for having it stolen from / with a vahicle ? Next question is whether there was any leniency because the bolt wasn't with it.

Never heard of the either scenarios Chris.

Of course, on many rifles the bolt is not easily removed such as on a semi, lever or pump action and there is no bolt as such on some single shot rifles like the Thompson contender.

Just being cheeky, My favourite traveling companion is a Ruger No1 in 6mmBR, block out while on the move couple of minutes and a screwdriver to reinstall
like to see said scumbag source a new block or ammo at the local gunshop it they did carry 6mmBR ammo it would not chamber as it has a tight neck, The answer
is only travel with a wildcat of some sort that won't chamber factory ammo,
My rifle travels in the boot and the ammo is under the front seat, would a locked box bolted to the chassis rails be considered ok by brother Plod my car as a great
alarm system and is immobilised when the key is removed the battery cables run inside the car making it difficult to cut the power.

Back in the day, I used to put the HT-lead in my pocket, then I progressed to a steering-wheel lock and only in the last 8yrs, vehicle insurance (which literally paid-off last year). I still use the St-whl-lock, cos I know crims will take the easiest-target unless stealing-to-order. I dont know how many pockets I've ripped from carrying a bolt, but a few. I was more interested in how-far, the letter-of-the Law was taken, and realise inoperative firearms can be used for crime, as can replicas, water-pistols and bluffing. I have heard of people having a Licence-suspension over "unattended" firearms that have been stolen. If I was The Plod, I'd be happy-as, that a Crim got an incomplete firearm, rather than a complete one. I'm sure there exists, some deviant individual, amassing "parts", for the chance of completing something ,but I Know that the vast majority(of incomplete ones) are thrown in rivers, according to Police I've spoken to...total stupidity..and waste. I guess as the average IQ continues to drop, we are only going to see more of it.. though, on a lighter-note, we could raise the IQ here,and in Australia, by sending a few back over the Ditch... ( in my defence, I do know ;2 Aussies, 4 Japanese, 5 Latvians, 1 and a half Russians, numerous boat-people and a Dwarf...just saying)

I was wondering how much trouble I should go to , storing my bolts. Just drop it in the bottom of the undies drawer (No ! don't tell me you do this ...) or go the whole concealed second safe way ?

Anyway, moving away from the vehicle scenario, a lot of injuries inflicted with firearms are not done by criminal people. They are accidents, unlicensed children or others gaining access to a weapon and of course suicides. Storing bolts and ammo separately if done thoughtfully could help keep these at low levels.

I have 2 safes; and run two calibers in short and long guns. Ammo is presently locked away but not in a safe. I am wondering aloud whether putting one caliber of ammo in one safe where the short gun cannot fire it, and t'other caliber in the other safe where the long gun cannot fire it, would be improved security all around and not contravene the Arms Act wot sez, basically, do not store ammo with guns.

You could do that if both rifles are made inoperable and there is no separate internal lockup for the ammo. The best way would be to have separate external lock-ups for the bolts and ammo. However, that's not currently required and would obviously cost more; a bane to the many thousands of tight arses out there.

Thanks 10R. I was probably overthinking it. When I fill the short gun safe with ammo it's completely unbudgeable even if 'they' could pride the anchors out of the concrete, then being so heavy. But, can't do that for the long gun safe. So I'll just keep stashing the ammo separately in locked cases.

I'm getting my FAL license right now. Had the interview today. The person looked at my new gun safe and said it was secured acceptably as it's bolted to wall and floor. Said fixed to two surfaces was a must.
I said I'd put ammo in the gun safes inner locked box & asked if ok to have bolt there too. They said no, it's for knives, GPS etc only and ammunition should be in a seperate secured steel box in another part of house (another room, in roofspace etc). Said steel ammo box or steel tool box, mini safe is ok. Said have another for the bolt. Said preference is for 3 locked locations e.g. disabled rifle, ammo, bolt. Said I should be only person in the hosue who knows where the keys are & to add disposal instructions to my will during next update, plus in will say where the keys are located. Seems a bit OTT but that's what I was told today.

I had my renewal about a year or two ago, the guy had similar comments - no to having ammo and bolts in the internal locker, he said if someone steals the safe they have it all. And arranging someone with a FAL to secure firearms in the event of death, etc.
I got a safe off TM or the 1-day website for ammo and bolts, itsroughly 50cm x 35 x 35, it is hidden in another room. It quite handy for other valuable bits and pieces too, and for keeping chocolate away from the kids :thumbsup:

I have heard secondhand of someone not getting their renewal because they were away and their wife opened the gun safe for the inspection, and she didn't have a FAL.

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Originally Posted by uk_exile

I'm getting my FAL license right now. Had the interview today. The person looked at my new gun safe and said it was secured acceptably as it's bolted to wall and floor. Said fixed to two surfaces was a must.
I said I'd put ammo in the gun safes inner locked box & asked if ok to have bolt there too. They said no, it's for knives, GPS etc only and ammunition should be in a seperate secured steel box in another part of house (another room, in roofspace etc). Said steel ammo box or steel tool box, mini safe is ok. Said have another for the bolt. Said preference is for 3 locked locations e.g. disabled rifle, ammo, bolt. Said I should be only person in the hosue who knows where the keys are & to add disposal instructions to my will during next update, plus in will say where the keys are located. Seems a bit OTT but that's what I was told today.

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This is logical but perhaps not in the regulations yet ? The bar is gradually being raised. In the past, inspectors have shown studied disinterest in security for my bolt and ammo.

For storing ammo, you need to consider fire safety, keeping it in good condition and volume of storage required, as well as security from theft or "borrowing" .

The weak point for multiple safes is the keys. Resettable combination locks would be better.

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Originally Posted by Bagheera

For storing ammo, you need to consider fire safety, keeping it in good condition and volume of storage required.

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Loaded ammunition isn't really a fire safety concern, stored gun powder is though.

Seems to be a local AO making it up as he / she / xe sees fit. All safes and lockboxes are, is delay; knowing my safe is anchored in two dimensions into the basement wall, a determined thief with a sledgehammer and crowbar and say thirty minutes' quiet time (thieves not tending to regular cardio IMO) could have it out and gone down the road to break into with a gas-axe. My ammo is stored in locked Pelican cases away from the safes, but it's not highly concealed, just not easily visible.

I think we would all have less concerns about home security if the dratted judiciary spent more time keeping thieves out of circulation - that is, if the police even bothered to turn up at burglaries in the first place. My view of burglars is that they are also thieves of my time - I would have spent xx weeks and yy months of my life working to earn what they stole, (and no insurance does not compensate for all losses) and so I want them spending xx years of their lives to make up for it. Rehab, pfui. Can come after retributive punishment.

Excuse me, this rant now over. Carry on :-)

Frankly, this whole thread is a waste of time. There is nothing in the Arms Act or the Regulations about separating bolts from rifles and storing them separately, nor is there any requirement to have ammunition locked in any form of safe. The ammunition requirements are that it shall be stored separately from the firearms and out of the reach of children. The top of a cupboard in another room is perfectly fine. Bolts and rifles should never be separated except for cleaning purposes. The same applies to magazines. Bending over to accept unlawful demands from ill-informed Arms Officers is nothing more than showing a complete lack of intestinal fortitude, and it encourages them to believe that are actually in the right! Comply with the law but don't demean yourself by accepting unlawful crap from public servants!

Diverting over to ammunition storage ...

Here's the relevant bit from the Arms Regulations 1992 reprint 2013:


19 Conditions relating to security precautions
(1) Every firearms licence shall be subject to the following condi- tions:
(a) the holder shall not put a firearm in such a place that a young child has ready access to it:
(b) the holder, where he or she has both a firearm and am- munition for it in his or her possession, either—
(i) shall take reasonable steps to ensure that the am-
munition is not stored in such a way that a person who obtains access to the firearm also obtains ac- cess to the ammunition; or
(ii) shall ensure that, where the ammunition is stored with the firearm, the firearm is not capable of being discharged:
(c) the holder shall take reasonable steps to ensure that any firearm in the holder’s possession is secured against theft:
(the reasonable precautions are in section 2 and have been discussed often on here so I don't want to start again on this thread.)

Again, the bolt is not mentioned but is indirectly referred to by "the firearm is not capable of being discharged".
So:
As a baseline, storing ammunition inside a gun safe inside a further locked compartment is no good, because apparently the whole safe is often taken.
The regulations explicitly permit ammunition to be stored with firearms, provided the firearm is not capable of being discharged. The required security for bolts is not specified.
The regulation refers to "ammunition for it" so it could arguably be legal to store other ammunition with the firearm, as described above.
There seems to be no reference to ammunition that is stored separately from the firearm.

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Originally Posted by uk_exile

I'm getting my FAL license right now. Had the interview today. The person looked at my new gun safe and said it was secured acceptably as it's bolted to wall and floor. Said fixed to two surfaces was a must.
I said I'd put ammo in the gun safes inner locked box & asked if ok to have bolt there too. They said no, it's for knives, GPS etc only and ammunition should be in a seperate secured steel box in another part of house (another room, in roofspace etc). Said steel ammo box or steel tool box, mini safe is ok. Said have another for the bolt. Said preference is for 3 locked locations e.g. disabled rifle, ammo, bolt. Said I should be only person in the hosue who knows where the keys are & to add disposal instructions to my will during next update, plus in will say where the keys are located. Seems a bit OTT but that's what I was told today.

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I have found generally the interviewers/ security inspector generally suffer from bouts of "making shit up on the spot" I have always countered with " I have mine secured according to what the the Arms Act says and if they are not happy with that then they could get the local AO to give me a call so we can discuss.......................never had a call yet

Actually I think my security is a bit OTT but I like my stuff

Agree with you Mikee. My ammo is stored in padlocked Pelican cases just because I like to know it can't be accessed quickly by people who should not have it.

Also, no-one - even The Most Senior Wife - knows where said cases are; nor where safe keys and Pelican padlock keys are kept. Hint; I reckon it would take The Nefarious minimum 8 hours to find them key in the house even with 4 searchers and a lot of lateral thinking.

The gun safes are of course obvious if you get entry to the basement, because they look like gun safes, duh, but by the time some lowlife enters my basement uninvited, xe has already transgressed grievously.

But I take those precautions because I want to, not because of hoplophobes.

I think many AOs have been infected by the Chris Cahill virus... IMO. YMMV as they say.

Bagheera, the 'reasonable precautions' in Sec.2 all refer to the storage of firearms, not ammunition. Ammunition stored in a different location from the firearms is OK within the law. It is only when the firearms and ammunition are stored together (ie; in the same location or safe) that the firearms have to be disabled in some manner. Provided the firearms are stored in the proper security, the ammo can be in a separate cupboard inside a locked house and fully comply. Have you ever been in a sports shop and seen the ammo locked away? No, it is just sitting on the shelf separate from the firearms rack in a premises that gets annual security checks from the Police.

Gundoc; thank you. I had missed The Obvious. The gun shops I frequent do all, of course, have ammo out in the open, on shelves, where I can see it to buy.

(Slaps self on forehead, wanders off muttering "Jeez, old age sucks...")

It looks as if the Arms Regulations are different for dealers so check up before doing as they do.

Gundoc, thanks for restating the issues about security for firearms vs ammunition. Well said.
I don't think its bending over to store your bolt separately though. Now ... having a bolt that also requires a key to use it... That is crazy.

What we have found is that there is no legal status or recognition of bolt removal, nor storage requirements for the bolt. It's common sense, if you have a bolt gun, but can't reasonably be applied to semis, shotguns and many others. If you choose a bolt action, you have the option of easily redoubling your safety margin (and your companions' at home and in the bush). Just don't loose the bolt ! It will cost you the same as a new gun to replace it and is more valuable the wrong hands.

gundoc is correct in what he says. I will also add that there is no reason why ammunition can't be locked in the separate smaller compartment that many gun cabinets have.

If you have any issues with the police vettor, constable or AO regarding security, ask them to show you in the Arms Act or the Arms regulations where the relative law is that they're trying to enforce. Of course, it's always a good idea to have firearm security that exceeds current requirements. The Arms Act and Arms Regulations are very dated in several areas when it comes to security.