Buying Ammo

I recently when into my local hunting and fishing store to buy ammo. The sales person was very helpful and accommodating. The box of 308 soft points was handed over and i proceeded to the counter to pay for them. I was asked to produce my firearms license which is good. After a rummage through my wallet I remembered that i had left it in my duck shooting bag ( bummer). I apologized for my mistakes and said that I would have to return at a later date. The shop assistant offered to keep them under the counter until i returned but i said it would be a few days before i could get back. I commend hunting and fish on there procedures and its good to know that stores are following the rules. Well done :thumbsup::thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by nelpop

I recently when into my local hunting and fishing store to buy ammo. The sales person was very helpful and accommodating. The box of 308 soft points was handed over and i proceeded to the counter to pay for them. I was asked to produce my firearms license which is good. After a rummage through my wallet I remembered that i had left it in my duck shooting bag ( bummer). I apologized for my mistakes and said that I would have to return at a later date. The shop assistant offered to keep them under the counter until i returned but i said it would be a few days before i could get back. I commend hunting and fish on there procedures and its good to know that stores are following the rules. Well done :thumbsup::thumbsup:

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They could have just sold it to you without you producing your licence.

It's only a problem if you don't have a licence.

Nothing in law to say you have to show it, just have it.

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Originally Posted by muzza

But if you cant produce your licence , how does the seller know you actually have a licence at all?

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They don't, but as I said, it's only a problem legally for the seller if you don't have one.

Nothing in law to say you have to produce it, or they have to ask for it.

They could of rung your AO to confirm your licence.

Yet to find ANY store who doesn't ask.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

They could of rung your AO to confirm your licence.

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Police will not confirm that you have a valid license now, had it today, customer says he lost his license, police said no sales until he got his new license.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Yet to find ANY store who doesn't ask.

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Guncity

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Originally Posted by Taff

Police will not confirm that you have a valid license now, had it today, customer says he lost his license, police said no sales until he got his new license.

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Geeeze, ..............and they wonder why some of us have a lower opinion of them than politicians

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Originally Posted by Taff

Police will not confirm that you have a valid license now, had it today, customer says he lost his license, police said no sales until he got his new license.

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How could the cops possibly know who the customer, who says he lost his licence, really was?

How could they confirm the identity of someone at the end of a telephone line?

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Originally Posted by systolic

How could the cops possibly know who the customer, who says he lost his licence, really was?

How could they confirm the identity of someone at the end of a telephone line?

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Fair point @systolic

They could trust the dealer to have confirmed / know the identity of the person he is making inquiries about. Nothing wrong with trusting the occasional civilian.

I have myself had mixed experience of shops verifying my license. Maybe it's just because of the job I do that shop assistants "assume" I'm of course legit - but assumption can be the mother of some funny looking kids. I always insist on showing my license.

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Originally Posted by systolic

How could the cops possibly know who the customer, who says he lost his licence, really was?

How could they confirm the identity of someone at the end of a telephone line?

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I have no problem, with the police, saying no license, no buy, this may become easier when they manage to get the system set up when gun shops can check validity of licenses, as trade me has at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Jexla

Yet to find ANY store who doesn't ask.

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@Jexla

I view of the different experiences of others, do you feel paranoia setting in? Is it that you look untrustworthy, maybe the toothpaste is not working on the halitosis, or it's the BO? What HAVE they all got against you?...

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Originally Posted by Ryan_Songhurst

Guncity

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the one and only time I have bought ammo from guncity they checked my licence, even though they sold me a rifle the day before :wtfsmilie:

same sales person if your wondering

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Originally Posted by Cordite

@Jexla

I view of the different experiences of others, do you feel paranoia setting in? Is it that you look untrustworthy, maybe the toothpaste is not working on the halitosis, or it's the BO? What HAVE they all got against you?...

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They're just doing their job? Lol

When I buy ammo off friends who work at gun shops, I still show them me license, not because it's the done thing, but because it's the bloody law.

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Originally Posted by Cordite

@Jexla

I view of the different experiences of others, do you feel paranoia setting in? Is it that you look untrustworthy, maybe the toothpaste is not working on the halitosis, or it's the BO? What HAVE they all got against you?...

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"
Lighten up mate - it may be geographical or an age thing: paranoia, toothpaste etc? @Jexla is relating experience - and has been ascribed the term "fit & proper" as defined by law: - why be a dick & ascribe appearance to an ammunition seller taking a "reasonable" precaution?

I think its still a good thing that they are checking licenses whether its required by law or not. Its all about accountability not being trustworthy. Besides if it stops someone that isn't licensed from buying ammo or for that matter an unlicensed person of questionable character from getting access to ammo thats got to be a good thing.

As much as Guncity is maligned online, I have purchased specials from there and they have not missed asking to sight my license. That is to their credit. With the number of staff an volume of sales a) they have a lot to lose if they get it wrong, and b) I am pretty sure they have sent a lot of time making sure their procedures are up to scratch.

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Originally Posted by Tommy

When I buy ammo off friends who work at gun shops, I still show them me license, not because it's the done thing, but because it's the bloody law.

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Where is it law that you must show your licence?

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Originally Posted by Nickoli

"
Lighten up mate - it may be geographical or an age thing: paranoia, toothpaste etc? @Jexla is relating experience - and has been ascribed the term "fit & proper" as defined by law: - why be a dick & ascribe appearance to an ammunition seller taking a "reasonable" precaution?

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Hi @Nickoli

No offense taken mate. Jexla apparently thought it funny, and that was how it was meant.

And yes, a reasonable precaution to check FAL. Esp young assistants who have not asked me for FAL when selling ammo. Maybe some hesitancy, not wanting to offend? Paradoxically, it would have been them ASKING to seem my FAL that would earn them my respect.

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Originally Posted by muzza

Mate -

from the Arms Act 1983

"43B Restriction on sales of ammunition
(1)
Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells or supplies ammunition for any firearm or restricted weapon to a person who is not—
(a)
the holder of a firearms licence; or
(b)
a licensed dealer. "

Always been there, the onus - as with anything firearms related - is with the licence holder to prove he/she has a current licence.

I really dont get why you are so negative on everything.

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In part of the meaning of the word, the LICENSE is actually a noun referring to the credit card piece of plastic called a FAL. If you have lost it say, you are actually no FAL-holder at the moment and you should really make haste to get a replacement license.

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Originally Posted by Cordite

In part of the meaning of the word, the LICENSE is actually a noun referring to the credit card piece of plastic called a FAL. If you have lost it say, you are actually no FAL-holder at the moment and you should really make haste to get a replacement license.

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Bullshit.

The card is merely something to show that you have a licence. It is not THE licence.

The licence is the record held in the computer system, not the card.

If I thump my girlfriend and the Arms Officer revokes my firearms licence and I don't hand over the plastic card, saying I don't know where I put it, do I still have a licence?


If I drop my wallet with my driver licence card in it down a drain, have I lost my right to drive? Or have I just lost the plastic card that shows I am allowed to drive?

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Originally Posted by muzza

Mate -

from the Arms Act 1983

"43B Restriction on sales of ammunition
(1)
Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells or supplies ammunition for any firearm or restricted weapon to a person who is not—
(a)
the holder of a firearms licence; or
(b)
a licensed dealer. "

Always been there, the onus - as with anything firearms related - is with the licence holder to prove he/she has a current licence.

I really dont get why you are so negative on everything.

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That just says you can't sell ammo to someone who doesn't have a licence. Nothing about the buyer having to show it.

Where is it law that you must show your licence?

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Originally Posted by muzza

How will the seller ascertain that the buyer has a licence? He will ask for it , because by law he cant sell to an unlisenced person. Same as the cop asking for your drivers licence when you get pinged for being more than 4 km/h over the speed limit. The only way the seller can find that out on the spot is to ask you to show.

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Obviously the seller asking the buyer to produce their licence will be the best way for the seller to know if they have a licence. And they would be fucking stupid not to ask.

However, they don't have to ask to see it and there is nothing in law to say the buyer has to produce it.

And as long as the person they are selling to has a licence, produced or not, they are not breaking the law.

On many Saturday mornings I sell .22 and 9mm ammo to other club members. I don't ask to see their licences and they usually don't show me. No laws are being broken as they have a licence or they wouldn't be able to join the club. The club secretary is usually the only one who sees the licences.

Oh, and if the cops pull me over and I don't have my driver licence with me, they can simply radio dispatch to check.

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Originally Posted by systolic

Obviously the seller asking the buyer to produce their licence will be the best way for the seller to know if they have a licence. And they would be fucking stupid not to ask.

However, they don't have to ask to see it and there is nothing in law to say the buyer has to produce it.

And as long as the person they are selling to has a licence, produced or not, they are not breaking the law.

On many Saturday mornings I sell .22 and 9mm ammo to other club members. I don't ask to see their licences and they usually don't show me. No laws are being broken as they have a licence or they wouldn't be able to join the club. The club secretary is usually the only one who sees the licences.

Oh, and if the cops pull me over and I don't have my driver licence with me, they can simply radio dispatch to check.

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You're right, but I think people weren't quite understanding what you were saying.

Basically it's not an offense to sell ammo to someone who is licensed even if you don't check they are. Obviously the only way to be 100% sure is to sight the card.
Therefore you can sell/give ammo to a friend you know is licensed without committing an offense as long as they're honest with you, up until they're not.

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Originally Posted by systolic

Bullshit.

The card is merely something to show that you have a licence. It is not THE licence.

The licence is the record held in the computer system, not the card.

If I thump my girlfriend and the Arms Officer revokes my firearms licence and I don't hand over the plastic card, saying I don't know where I put it, do I still have a licence?


If I drop my wallet with my driver licence card in it down a drain, have I lost my right to drive? Or have I just lost the plastic card that shows I am allowed to drive?

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@systolic

What do you call the card? a firearms license. It may well be invalid or valid, but seller is ok either way.

big deep breaths everyone.
By the letter of the law I would suggest that while theoretically you may not have to produce it, and only be a holder of a current FAL, practically in a store environment the best way to CYA as a seller is to ask for it to be produced. Get in the habit and then the shit doesn't hit the fan on the one time you don't and some-one is beating the system. As a responsible FAl holder it isn't really a problem is it? @systolic yup I agree with you about the ammo at the gun club but you would have pretty good cause in that situation.
Guy walking off the street into a gun store, not so much.

+1

Amazing.......I just ordered 1000 rounds of Winchester skeet rounds,400 rounds of HMR 17,60 rounds Remington 300WSM.......ALL on the net,with credit card .....and had it.......waited for it.........delivered for FREE......no license,no ID.....

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Originally Posted by A330driver

Amazing.......I just ordered 1000 rounds of Winchester skeet rounds,400 rounds of HMR 17,60 rounds Remington 300WSM.......ALL on the net,with credit card .....and had it.......waited for it.........delivered for FREE......no license,no ID.....

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@A330driver

Capitalism rules over there. Whether it's all good, hmm.

Get over it mate... it’s all good... was being merely facetious....it has always been where you are located... merely pointing out my position

the entirety of the section says this:

Section 43(3)(a): amended, on 1 November 1992, by section 20(b) of the Arms Amendment Act 1992 (1992 No 95).

43A Mail order sale of firearm or ammunition
(1)
Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells by mail order a firearm or any ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon otherwise than pursuant to a written order—
(a)
signed by the purchaser; and
(b)
bearing an endorsement signed by a member of the Police and stating that the member of the Police—
(i)
has inspected the purchaser’s firearms licence; and
(ii)
is satisfied that the purchaser is a fit and proper person to purchase that firearm or ammunition.
(2)
Nothing in this section applies in relation to—
(a)
any pistol, restricted weapon, or military style semi-automatic firearm; or
(b)
any ammunition for a firearm to which paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of section 22(1) applies.
Section 43A: inserted, on 1 November 1992, by section 21 of the Arms Amendment Act 1992 (1992 No 95).

Section 43A(1): amended, on 1 July 2013, by section 413 of the Criminal Procedure Act 2011 (2011 No 81).

43B Restriction on sales of ammunition
(1)
Every person commits an offence and is liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $1,000 who sells or supplies ammunition for any firearm or restricted weapon to a person who is not—
(a)
the holder of a firearms licence; or
(b)
a licensed dealer.
(2)
In any prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) in which it is proved that the defendant sold or supplied ammunition for a firearm or restricted weapon to any person, the burden of proving that that person was—
(a)
the holder of a firearms licence; or
(b)
a licensed dealer,—
shall lie on the defendant.

(3)
It is a good defence to a prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) if the defendant proves—
(a)
that the ammunition was supplied to a person for use under the immediate supervision of the holder of a firearms licence; and
(b)
that at all times while the person to whom the ammunition was supplied was in possession of the ammunition, that person was under the immediate supervision of the holder of a firearms licence.
(4)
A defendant may, in the case of a prosecution for an offence against subsection (1), discharge the burden of proof placed on the defendant by subsection (2) by proving that the defendant took reasonable steps to ascertain whether the person to whom the ammunition was sold or supplied was—
(a)
the holder of a firearms licence; or
(b)
a licensed dealer.
(5)
Nothing in this section applies in relation to any ammunition for a firearm to which paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) or paragraph (c) of section 22(1) applies.

So, in event of an alleged breach, the onus is on the shop to prove the purchaser was a licence holder, and if the shop did take reasonable steps to ensure the purchaser was licensed then it is OK.

Insofar as complying with the law, I do not see any better way to ask the purchaser to produce the license.

It's plain common sense that proof of having a FAL in the first instance is the FAL card. It even says New Zealand Firearms Licence with your picture on it. I doubt many shop staff are going to go to the trouble of contacting an Arms Officer to validate that you're a firearms licence holder and also obtain proof that you are who you say you are. Especially when the shop is busy.

I've walked into at least two gun shops to buy ammo and had forgotten my card. The staff had know issue validating that I am a license holder. A phone call to the AO and 1 minute later, and I was on my way.

In regards to our history, the card is a relatively new thing - But it's not the actual licence of the person.

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

In regards to our history, the card is a relatively new thing - But it's not the actual licence of the person.

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True, but the card does say, "New Zealand Firearms Licence" not "New Zealand Firearms Licence Holder".

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Originally Posted by 10-Ring

True, but the card does say, "New Zealand Firearms Licence" not "New Zealand Firearms Licence Holder".

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Are you sure about that?

Attachment 92612

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Originally Posted by Sasquatch

Are you sure about that?

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Ah! Good one. It says both. :)