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Thread: Could this be the Death knell of gun ownership ???

  1. #1
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    Could this be the Death knell of gun ownership ???

    Very first things that I would like to establish in this post.
    1/. I am not anti-gun ownership
    2/. I am not trying to start a flame-fest
    3/. I am looking for some mature, reasoned thought and discussion.

    9mm Beretta CX4 Storm 90 Red Dot Silencer Tactical Package
    Selling at GunCity - Link below.
    https://www.guncity.com/9mm-beretta-...package-346931

    Here I might add….
    4/. I have no beef directly with GunCity or any other gun retailer.

    The thrust of my post is that these 9mm Beretta CX Storm and many other tactical like variants are sold by gun retailers to the general A Cat Firearm Licensed public; and there is no law against these sales.

    What is the purpose of these sales? For the retailer, to make profit, and no problem with that.
    What about the person who buys them? I don’t see the avid hunter or target shooter thinking they are a must have in their rifle safe.
    What is this class of guns purpose? Ostensibly, as a defensive/offensive class of firearm used by different Police departments and other government organisations around the world. So what purpose does this class of firearm serve in the public's hands in NZ? Well obviously not a defensive or offensive purpose as citizens of NZ aren’t allowed to use firearms for this. So to my way of thinking these weapons would only be purchased for collecting or plinking. Again, no laws broken. I can even see the attraction in owning one of these weapons; hey, I used to be a bit of a “Gun Nut” in my time - I have just got older and have less expendable income. And when I use the term “Gun Nut” I use it in a good sense. There are people out their who just love guns. They love collecting them, cleaning them, shooting them and generally being surrounded by them. And this “Good Gun Nut” is law abiding, extremely safety and security conscious and of no threat to the public; I know, I have moved in their circles in years gone past. They collect and surround themselves with guns much like an avid Model Train collector does with model trains, and we never think of the Model Train collector amassing model trains to be a threat to the public. That being said, few people, if any, are injured or killed by model trains, a vital point not lost on the general public.

    But how does the public view the increasing popularity and growth of the so called Tactical weapons? Judging from groups of older non-FAL holding people I come into contact with, not well. In the group I was BBQing with last night, one of them had come into possession of a GunCity advertising flyer. The Beretta CX Storm was advertised in this. Being a curious and enterprising chap he mused on the use and purpose of this gun. He researched it and came away quite outraged at the legality of these weapons in the community. Very quickly the same outrage was held and expressed by most other members of the group. I was a lone outsider offering possible defenses for the ownership of such weapons. The majority were not buying my lone defensive cries.

    So to cut to the main question of this post, what effect is the legal sale and possession of tactical weapons platforms having on the majority of FAL holders/sports shooters/hunters in NZ? Is it moving the general public to viewing any legal gun owner as being on the fringe of criminal or underground militia group? Is it giving rising disquiet to government fueled by perhaps well meaning but at times misguided law enforcement agencies? Will it pave the way to helping convince the public that we need tighter restrictive gun control?

    I ask these questions from the point of view of a FAL holder and avid - though not too successful - hunter; and a wannabe “Gun Nut” who doesn’t have the time or resources to be one.

    Is the overall rise in popularity of the “Tactical Gun Platform” helping or threatening the ease of gun ownership in New Zealand?

    Good thoughtful discussion invited.
    WallyR, Blisters and Frodo like this.

  2. #2
    Member 40mm's Avatar
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    well I didnt get to finish reading your post and just had to say something...

    I have a .45 acp carbine and it is a great target gun. my mate has a 9mm carbine and it is even better!

    1/ about as cheap as you can get for center fire shooting.
    2/ pretty much zero recoil.
    3/ easily suppressed (less annoyed neighbours)
    4/while a ricochet is not a problem with responsible shooters who shoot in safe directions, they still happen and the pistol carbines are just dandy as they are less powerful so a ricochet is far less dangerous.

    5/they are a heap of fun, try one and let us know what you think.
    Use enough gun

  3. #3
    Member Max Headroom's Avatar
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    Not meaning to be complacent, but Death Knells come and go. Anti gun people will see this stuff, jump up and down, froth at the mouth for a while.

    Then they'll lose interest,and go and agitate for the removal of applause at public meetings, and the substitution of jazz hands in lieu, or whatever the "Protest du Jour "is.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40mm View Post
    well I didnt get to finish reading your post and just had to say something...

    I have a .45 acp carbine and it is a great target gun. my mate has a 9mm carbine and it is even better!

    1/ about as cheap as you can get for center fire shooting.
    2/ pretty much zero recoil.
    3/ easily suppressed (less annoyed neighbours)
    4/while a ricochet is not a problem with responsible shooters who shoot in safe directions, they still happen and the pistol carbines are just dandy as they are less powerful so a ricochet is far less dangerous.

    5/they are a heap of fun, try one and let us know what you think.
    Can't disagree with any of the above, and yes, I believe that they can/could be a lot of fun and that I would more than likely get off on one if I had the time and money to own one.

    None of this though was the point of my questions which basically is, are they helping or hindering legal gun ownership in NZ?

  5. #5
    Member dannyb's Avatar
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    Can't see how they are any worse than AR, Ak or other semi platforms, (worse is probably not the right term but I think you get what I mean)
    So no I don't think they are hurting us as firearms owners
    Boaraxa and Jexla like this.

  6. #6
    Member 40mm's Avatar
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    I think we need to put effort into educating the gun ignorant public as to what our favorite guns are used for.

    Hopefully you will get a bunch of good information from the people on this forum, which you can use to put together something informative to share with your disgusted friends who just cant understand why such a lethal killing machine needs to be for sale in NZ. (please set them straight about how a 9mm carbine is a hell of a lot safer than even a .303)

    I see a lot of advertised guns that are clearly marketed towards the Rambo wannabe crowd, who all hold an A cat licence only. Mostly dreamers, who don't know any more about guns than your disgusted friends.

    I have never heard of a 9mm carbine being used by police etc. A Mp5 or Uzi for sure, but a carbine pistol calibre never. (I may be wrong but I cant see the point of a long SMG)
    Use enough gun

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dannyb View Post
    Can't see how they are any worse than AR, Ak or other semi platforms, (worse is probably not the right term but I think you get what I mean)
    So no I don't think they are hurting us as firearms owners
    I agree, definitely no worse than the AR or AK platforms. I would suggest that the AR or AK are definitely more lethal, but are the AR or AK platforms helping or hindering gun ownership especially when the public and media view the AK, in particular, as being the go to weapon of the terrorist.

  8. #8
    Member dannyb's Avatar
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    I think your reading way to much into this my friend, to an anti gun fanatic an air rifle is as bad as anything else.

  9. #9
    308
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    I don't think that the Beretta in question warrants such a dramatic thread title

    9mm carbines are great fun

  10. #10
    JWB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil_H View Post
    What is this class of guns purpose? Ostensibly, as a defensive/offensive class of firearm used by different Police departments and other government organisations around the world. So what purpose does this class of firearm serve in the public's hands in NZ? Well obviously not a defensive or offensive purpose as citizens of NZ aren’t allowed to use firearms for this.
    Can you show me the legislation prohibiting the use of a firearm for self-defence under NZ law?

    I can show you the legislation allowing any means at your disposal to defend your life or that of another under threat!

    If it is not prohibited by law, then it is legal, no matter what police policy may say.
    Jexla, Deetleaves and outlander like this.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 308 View Post
    I don't think that the Beretta in question warrants such a dramatic thread title

    9mm carbines are great fun
    Perhaps I have conveyed the wrong message. I am not taking issue with the Beretta 9mm as such but more commenting on the rise of interest of the Tactical Gun Platforms by both pro and anti gun interest groups.

    Personally I have no issue with them and agree - as stated in previous post - that I could possibly find a lot of enjoyment in one of these carbines.

    My concern is with the lesser firearm savvy/educated/blinkered public who view a tactical looking gun as GungHo, Rambo, military style weapons which shouldn't be in the hands of anyone other than military or law enforcement.

    I have no issue with these firearms being in the hands of responsible FAL users. My concern is the how the public view them and the possible repercussions that could be felt by the wider legal gun owning community.

    I don't have the answers; just looking for others thoughts and some good discussion.

    I do feel that complacency in the matter, i.e. everything is OK, don't worry about it, is not the answer. To easily, I think, we could wake one morning and find the conservative, anti gun lobbyists could have persuaded government to tighten and erode our gun ownership rights because we have been to long asleep at the wheel thinking that we find no issue with the current gun interest trends - tactical platforms - so why would anyone else.

    No I don't belong to the NRA, but yes, I do see that our rights as legal gun owners could be easily eroded unless we wake up and see how the rest of the public see private gun ownership.

  12. #12
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    I think any gun is a threat to anti gun people so no I don't think it is hindering our gun ownership, as said before these people need to be educated.
    northdude, 40mm, outlander and 2 others like this.

  13. #13
    By Popular Demand gimp's Avatar
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    I’m not reading all that

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JWB View Post
    Can you show me the legislation prohibiting the use of a firearm for self-defence under NZ law?

    I can show you the legislation allowing any means at your disposal to defend your life or that of another under threat!

    If it is not prohibited by law, then it is legal, no matter what police policy may say.
    With my limited understanding of legislation I agree with you. I believe that a firearm can be used in your defense in extreme circumstances - threat of death - where all and every other avenue was exhausted or not available to you. However, rock up to your local Police station and apply for a FAL and casually mention that you want it for the purposes of self defense and see how far your application gets.

    Whilst I believe, as you possibly do, that it is legal to use a firearm for your defense, in specific and extreme circumstances, I do not believe there is any legislation providing you with the specific right to own a firearms solely for the purposes of self defense. I could be wrong and am willing to be corrected.

    However, such discussion distracts from the primary thrust of my post; are we in danger of losing or experiencing eroding gun ownership rights due to the rise of interest in "Tactical Platforms".

    Just a quick recap to all readers. I am not anti gun ownership or "Tactical Platform" adverse.
    I am just throwing the questions out there as to whether we are becoming too complacent with how the wider NON FAL public view private gun ownership and what, if anything, we could do about it.

    I have a vested interest in gun ownership. I own them and enjoy them personally and hope to do so for the next 30 years into my 90's, unhindered by onerous and restrictive legislation.
    outlander likes this.

  15. #15
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    Nope not going to be the death knell of gun ownership, that will be my missus putting her foot down or me running out of money.
    7mmsaum, 10-Ring, Cyclops and 3 others like this.
    It takes 43 muscle's to frown and 17 to smile, but only 3 for proper trigger pull.
    What more do we need? If we are above ground and breathing the rest is up to us!
    Rule 1: Treat every firearm as loaded
    Rule 2: Always point firearms in a safe direction
    Rule 3: Load a firearm only when ready to fire
    Rule 4: Identify your target beyond all doubt
    Rule 5: Check your firing zone
    Rule 6: Store firearms and ammunition safely
    Rule 7: Avoid alcohol and drugs when handling firearms

 

 

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