Thread: E cat safe/safe room options

Originally Posted by Jexla

Returning stolen firearms? As if someone cannot and would not give the serial numbers of their stolen firearms when stolen, not beforehand for no good reason.

As for prosecuting offenders, what are you prosecuting them with exactly that wouldn't be possible without the serial number being on record BEFORE the robbery?

It's actually rare for people to have their serial numbers recorded, so it's virtually impossible to identify if a firearm is stolen and where it came from. If you can identify it you can link it back to a specific burglary.

In my experience most people don't record serial numbers and it's actually reasonably rare to see serial numbers removed.

Registration does have it's uses, regardless of your opinion.

[QUOTE=Savage1;564554]From Wikipedia: Paranoia is a thought process believed to be heavily influenced by anxiety or fear, often to the point of delusion and irrationality.

It still amazes me how much people jump up and down at the slightest hint of registration, ignoring the fact that for years there has been a gun registry running in this country and the sky hasn't fallen and the government hasn't arrived in force to take them.[/QUOTE

In 2000 George Hawkins, then Minister of Police, announced in the Herald they were going to buy back MSSA's and had $20m to do so. Right then and there the honest people who registered their MSSA's were looking at being rewarded for their honesty by having their guns taken off them. George must have been off his medicine because fortunately nothing came of it. The use of registration to confiscate firearms has happened in Canada, Australia and the U.K. Why would you want to make it easier for that to happen in NZ through universal registration? The NZ Police abandoned registration because by their own admission it was effectively useless for solving armed crime and was so error ridden as to be useless. It cost Canada billions and they ditched it. As for using it to return stolen firearms, you want to bring in a system that costs millions a year to run to return a few thousand dollars of stolen property? Tell you what, put that in a business case to treasury and let me know how you get on.

Originally Posted by Savage1

It still amazes me how much people jump up and down at the slightest hint of registration, ignoring the fact that for years there has been a gun registry running in this country and the sky hasn't fallen and the government hasn't arrived in force to take them.

Except when they did in 1972 with pistols or in WW2 for .303s....

Just to add to the above that as long as I can remember, every single firearm in South Africa has had and continues to be registered. It has done absolutely zero to minimize crime simply because they scratch the serials off - why would a criminal worth his salt want to tie their possession of a previously legally held firearm to the person they stole it from and / or murdered?

Not to mention the countless R1s, R4s, R5s, G3s, Z88s etc that have been stolen from state officials over the years, nor the reduced number of AKMs that are coming across the border from Mozambique (easier to just buy / steal weapons from the cops or army).

Long story short, in South Africa the police are regularly guilty of malfeance - only there it's a national sport and there are few "internal enquiries" to cover up their activities. There is a continued effort through parliament to advance even further restrictions on legal firearm ownership - in a country where it's literally, every man / woman for themselves.

In summary, licensed firearm owners are not the problem. One should ask why licensed firearm owners internationally are continually viewed in a suspicious light by the authorities?

i have photos of all my firearms complete with serial numbers and distinguishing features (eg scratch on stock).
sorry @SAVAGE i trust no department or agency with that info unless they were stolen

I look at it from cost to benefit. Is it gonna be worth the money and labour recording (pulling numbers from thin air) legally owned guns to catch maybe 1 or 2% of license holders who do dodgy things?

Who's gonna pay for it? Are they gonna jack up license prices or make you pay per gun registered? Will this result in people going fuck it, as a lot of duck shooters do and just carry on?

How are things going to be recorded accurately when the current recording of BCE category firearms is fraught with errors?

Would you be no longer able to borrow/lend firearms to/from other people without changing the registration to their name?

Didn't that guy Winters who shot the roadworks stop-go man get convicted partly because the cops had a record of his rifles from a security inspection during relicensing?

Sound like a good reason to have serial numbers to me.

Originally Posted by systolic

Didn't that guy Winters who shot the roadworks stop-go man get convicted partly because the cops had a record of his rifles from a security inspection during relicensing?

Sound like a good reason to have serial numbers to me.

And how'd they get the serial number of said firearm?

Originally Posted by Jexla

And how'd they get the serial number of said firearm?

Recorded during a security inspection when Winters relicensed. Like my post said.

Originally Posted by systolic

Recorded during a security inspection when Winters relicensed. Like my post said.

Yes, I read it. But what good was that considering they didn't have the firearm from the scene?

My intention wasn't to promote registration but to point out that it isn't "utterly USELESS".

It certainly does have its uses and has no doubt prevented/detered people from supplying B-C-E cat weapons to unfit people.

@Savage1

Here's a trailer to an award winning tribeca doco that talks about the change in power I mentioned earlier. The doco is filmed in America but is happening all over the world. I hope this doesn't come to our beautiful country in my life time or that you would ever want this for our society.

Originally Posted by Savage1

An inter-generational conspiracy to disarm the population? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

There's plenty of evidence just look how civilian firearm ownership is trending in the last 50 years, more extraordinary would be the last century! Not only globally but here in NZ - you already have had someone quote the 1972 pistol ban.

Originally Posted by Savage1

There is no need for an inter-generational conspiracy to disarm the population, they could enact laws in a few months to do such a thing, no need to draw it out and never see the results due to dying of old age.

Refer to previous response ^^^

Originally Posted by Savage1

I believe it is more because society is changing and violence is becoming less acceptable and the need for firearms is reducing due to urbanisation. The media of the day seem to make people unnecessarily fearful of the world out there, and distrusting of anyone holding a position of power.

Now this part makes me sad, on one hand you say that society is (here's that word again) trending towards well let's face it, a more controlled society coupled with a fear mongering media that also puts out alot of disinformation. And on the other hand, you mention of conspiracies and paranoia & no evidence? This seems conflicting to me.

I do find your way of putting it quite amusing - "Urbanization" It's not something I particular subscribe to or like where we are headed for the future. There's the over sensationalized media, the ever spying mass surveillance and the draconian style transformation of power from police & other agencies against everyday citizens.

I'm basing the 'very little' figure off of the number of staff employed by Police for the AO roles and how much of their time is spent dealing with this part of it.

I'm not for or against registration but some statements on here are just manifestly untrue, eg registration has no use, our registry is inaccurate(sure there are mistakes but overall it's pretty good), it will just be used to confiscate weapons, there is a government conspiracy, won't work because of all the guns out there already etc.

If you look at it pragmatically the issues are far from insurmountable, it's actually a very easy subject in which to play the devils advocate. People on forums have a tendency to only discuss with people on the same side of the fence with little or no opposition/challenges to arguments and Conformation Bias runs rife.

Overall I think registration would have only a minor benefit for the costs involved and that money would be better used targeting organised crime etc

As per the Striesand effect*, I think a national registration will cause people to panic buy and stockpile A-cat "untraceable" firearms that will persist for a long time

Hell, there's still a few WW2 Luger pistols floating around that are totally illegal

Keep in mind that the tools we use as firearms owners can easily persist in a working state for nigh on a hundred years if properly maintained - my back-up bush gun has 1942 stamped on the side and will go for another 50+ years if I don't let it rust


Also, given police's track record on maintaining databases I flat out do not trust their competence or financial probity since the INCIS debacle - a national database will be too unwieldy, too leakable and probably poorly maintained and untimely in its updates or useability

Otherwise, a fuckin great idea



*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect