can the police themselves appeal these decisions?
and if they can the next obvious question would have to be why dont they? I'm sure anyone on this forum wouldn't have a shit show off getting a fal with a record like that...
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can the police themselves appeal these decisions?
and if they can the next obvious question would have to be why dont they? I'm sure anyone on this forum wouldn't have a shit show off getting a fal with a record like that...
Not at all. That's sort of my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by inglishill
Let us be fair, in the next few years (5, 10) give or take no one on this forum will be able to obtain a FAL because we have openly questioned the system. I hope to be proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by blip
A register is the first step of confiscation. It is only after confiscation is complete and there is still gun crime will the majority of the public understand. By then they would have forgotten anyway.
There will be no redress, there will be no 'Oh, we got it wrong you can have your firearms back', in fact, it is likely we will be blamed forever more in the annuals of history. 'The bunch of nutter hunters/target shooters/insert your discipline here/ who were exemplified by David Gray.... blah blah blah blah..... Tarrant..... blah blah blah.'.
Very topical aside.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
Remember this Clause is in the Fit & Proper Definition as passed by Parliament. Try and find it on the FSA website under their Fit & Proper description. It has been conveniently omitted even as it is in the Definition/Criteria by Law.
"The Criteria will not be applied retrospectively to reassess current Licence Holders but will be considered when Police respond to new actions by a current Licence Holder after the commencement of Section 24A"
I understand and can agree with all of you who say he should never have a gun licence.
In the back of my mind though is the nagging thought that there needs to always be a path to redemption. My father, once a senior police officer, always said, Forgive, but don't forget.
If you don't question the system there is no improvement. I don't believe for a second that there is anyone in the current system that thinks it's fit for purpose and not needing improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by inglishill
The issue is - the people administering it are not looking at it from the lens of an end-user, they are only looking at it from a simplification and cost reduction model overlayed with a 'make it simple for us so it can't be cocked up by the people we employ cheaply to do the work' filter.
For us as the people who are the 'users' of the system (as opposed to the beneficiarys in the public at large as a safety regime) the simplified and cost reduced model will never supply what we need in terms of technology changing, different types of activities that need to be completed, so there is always going to be friction. Example being 3-gun - no one to my knowledge was injured from a shooting at one of these events so by definition the sport was safe and it was only when someone who shouldn't have been granted access was that there was a problem (or 51+), but due to events it was deemed 'too hard' so was gone-d.
This is scary accurate:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DI15F...FxMXY1djF1cjFq
The bloke doesn't need a gun licence if he wants to revert to crime again. Everyone knows that.
He wanted a gun licence so that he can enjoy hunting, the bush, nature. And influence the disadvantaged into doing the same.
Fill your boots I say.
Just 'cos we are pissy about the gun laws and how we and others are treated does not mean that this guy doesn't deserve a break. He's maybe done more for society in seeking his redemption in a short time than many FAL holders have done in their lifetime.
Im all for giving people a chance but theres a bit of a diffetence between a dumb mistake and repeat offending. In this case 15 times? Thats not a dumb mistake or in the wrong place at the time to me that shows total
Disreguard for the law and anyone else.
I feel for the people working at the Firearm safety authority after this making the news. Ex convict applications are going to soar
You win the internet today. If you are ever in Auckland, I'll buy you a beer.Quote:
Originally Posted by norsk
True. The issue is the inconsistent nature. People having licenses removed for speeding tickets but 15x criminal conviction gets a licenseQuote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
You are right, but I think that your points are not the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
For a FAL holder who's been through the fisher and paykel test (sorry fit and proper person assessment rigmarole for a FAL) anything that is a minor offense becomes a black mark that can be used to remove your right to hold that FAL. And yes it is a right to hold the FAL if you meet the requirements, and not a privilege as there are specific processes enshrined in the legislation to challenge a revocation of the license despite the waffle about it being a privilege...
If you have never held a FAL and seriously offended in the past - it seems that those offences can be deemed to be 'in the past' despite the associations you have made and any links that may or may not remain. People don't just decide on the spur of the moment to commit violent crime, there is a whole ecosystem of people and social and environmental factors that contribute to the normalisation of the risk taking behaviour that leads a person to decide that the possible rewards of violent offending is worth any perceived risk. Once those links/contacts have been established they are still there in some form and for me it's the same as giving an ex-gang member a FAL - the contacts and risks remain in some form even if the individual has left that lifestyle.
That is the issue for me here, for a FAL holder that makes one error of judgement that is entirely isolated for what may be entirely understandable contributing factors and does not involve links and established criminal connections that can remain long after the offending - this can be enough to cause a revocation of the licence. Yet for whatever length of time these people have chosen to live a life of violence and premeditated criminal action, this can somehow be overlooked? There is a test of rationality and fairness that appears to be missing here.
How is the register a simplification and cost reduction?Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
Get caught drink driving too many times= no more licence ever
I hear this sort of thing a lot, can you point me in the direction to where this is documented?Quote:
Originally Posted by blip
I have tried to find the source information but have been unable to.
Every 'thing' is tracked. The theory being that the system knows what's out there, where and with who - simpler than relying on a 'high trust' "vetted license holder" model. The issue with the vetting system is how do you ensure that the vetting is done right every time without an expensive audit system?Quote:
Originally Posted by inglishill
In reality - we on the ground can see the failures with the registry in terms of accuracy and usefulness but it's much much simpler to audit that as a database of 'things' rather than having an audit division having to retrospectively revisit fit and proper person tests and that's it.
The license testing model is changing from July again too, much fewer people to audit with more stringent access requirements to complete the testing to jump through that hoop to get your licence...
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Mouse
Yes and I think it's fair that all of us get the same chance at redemption. Being able to show a reasonable period of time where you have improved your ways, should give you a second chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danger Mouse
Dont know where the docs are but ive got a rellie that cant get one anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by inglishill
I'm all for second chances, once they have paid their dues and demonstrated that they have made a real turnaround. I'd like to think that if I make a slip, there's a road back, even if it is long and tortuous.
This case is, at face value, an excellent example that even prison time for fifteen armed robberies isn't a life sentence. And there is a way back. If there is anything I'd like to see it is strict monitoring by the authority over his acquisitions and safekeeping (at least at first) and a one strike rule if there is any reoffending. I'm not a great believer in third chances.
I've just been through the process after watching my licence expire during the 20 years I lived overseas. When I first applied, I was told by the vetting agent that I should withdraw my application so that it wasn't rejected. This was because despite having previously held a licence in NZ, having supplied Criminal Record Checks for the countries I had lived in since leaving NZ, and having held firearms' licences in some of those countries, I could not provide a NZ Citizen, living in NZ who had been in close contact with me through the previous three years... I declined their suggestion to withdraw my application.
Fortunately, the actual Firearms officer who reviewed my file had a load of commonsense and chose to interview a number of people to satisfy the character side of things. Makes me wonder hom many others have been put off applying... and makes me a little frustrated at the stree I endured when reading this article... (though I believe everyone should have the opportunity for redemption).
I know im pretty hard line on this type of topic, as we all know any one can vouch for anyone and we have seen what can happen there. In cases like this on Id like to see the refferees shoulder some of the consiquences if this guy fuks up. Not saying he will but its going to be quite convienient if he does.
Now there is an episode in/of case law which your rellie can refer to should they wish to apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by blip
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by whanahuia
Not many of us would be able to honestly say that if everything we did in our younger years was exposed, that we never did anything which would draw suspicion on our fit and proper status. We just may not have been caught or convicted.
I think in this case, the guy is "now" one of our better citizens. If we all helped as many vulnerable people as he is now, we would live in a better place.
Yes, Nicolas Taylor would also be your man I hear. Got himself a nice career with what looks like no lessening of work in the future!
This is where very clear, plain english rules guiding what is acceptable and what is not and taking the human interpretation out of the usual run of business (with some process of special consideration for those who wish to proceed without fitting the 'normal mold' and those who come from overseas etc) would ease a lot of this.
As a lawyer I think this is the last field of law you would want to get into. A murky dark sort of field.Quote:
Originally Posted by No.3
As dumb as it sounds he wouldnt persue it he knows he has addiction problems and now he has no licence he is kind of doing the responsible thing and not hopping behind the wheel againQuote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
He had 14 chances to stop doing what he did after his first armed robbery......but he didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bol Tackshin
Which really makes you wonder WTF was going on after the 5th time, surely that would have been enough to put him away.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
Perhaps they only caught up with him after the 15th time.........
Or, they actually pinned it on the wrong guy and this is their backdoors way of redress.
Any number of things may have happened that we simply don't have the information to ascertain.
Time will tell, as always.Quote:
Originally Posted by Coop
With you on the one. This guys beyond help. And what the hell is he doing walking the streets now. Surely sensible sentencing would mean he should have been inside for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
Respectfully disagree. He was on the wrong path, irrespective of how many times he did it. Once he was tried and convicted, he served his sentence and turned his life around. That is his second chance. If he went back to prison because he reoffended after he was released, that's an entirely different matter, and if he now screws up, the first thing that needs to happen is he permanently loses the privilege to own and use firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by XR500
But hes a rugby player different rules :)
I am going to take a wild guess here,I don't think the gentleman being discussed is a Ginger from Southland with a striking absence of Tattoos and a perchant for Caledonian history.
Honestly 15 convictions for AR,how many did he actually blagg without getting caught?
What a reformed bloke does if he gets a FAL. This is him.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CSBXx0AJ...RlODBiNWFlZA==
https://www.instagram.com/maori_hunters/
As a self professed member of the hang ‘em at dawn brigade, I find it surprising that in this particular instance I am in total agreement with you. Ordinarily I would be using the old adage that Leopards do not change their spots but this fellah seams to be a proven exception and because of that (and his demonstrably positive contribution to the good of society) I don’t see an issue with him being given a Firearms License. In considering my (to myself) unusual view on this matter I think it is the considerable change that has swayed me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7mmwsm
You, sir, have my deep respect. Not enough of us are prepared to move from entrenched positions even in the face of a clear reason to do so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rushy