Mistaken for game hunting accidents and human factors report

Hi there, I've placed the full report in a dropbox for those interested.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kdopwcxcq...4jKDuly_a?dl=0

Understanding human factors has made a big impact in mitigating aviation risks in the last few decades and is starting to be adopted in surgical setttings.
Note that this report is commissioned by Hunter Safety Lab however the authors have some serious academic credentials.
I've also added both the complete and summary To Hunt And Return reports by Insp. Joe Green as this is referenced in the HFEx report.

Regards

RichE

National Radio interview on the subject

Nine To Noon, Monday 12 October 2015 | Radio New Zealand National

They tried to parse out the difference between the merely negligent which tended to be the younger shooters and the target that they are really after which tended to be the more experienced hunters who were sure that they had id'd their targets

I gather that this was used in the successful defence of the guy who shot his son hunting on Stewart Island.

Ya I guess so.
I hope this judgment will be published
There are examples in aviation where the pilots are completely convinced they are all good and then fly into the ground. Or where one or more of the flight crew know they are in the sh!t but the pilot flying doesn't recognise the danger until too late. Classic local example being Flight Engineer Gordon Brookes on NZ 901.

Oops my mistake that's TE 901
For those grey beards who know what TEAL stands for

This whole issue of mistaken target identification is now actually receiving some attention thankfully...

The amount of times that the hang em' high brigade start up when an unintentional shooting takes place is frightening.

Clearly some people are negligent, but also clearly also our minds can play tricks on us. To make these matters simply a result of carelessness or negligence is to deny that we can also be subject to genuine misinterpretation of what we are seeing.

Denying that, allows us to continue shooting at what we are seeing, without the understanding that sometimes we are not seeing what we are seeing.

Now that might be frightening for us as we venture out, but surely it should make us a more careful trigger puller and a more deliberate target identifier. And that can't be a bad thing.

What ever the reason its not good,,, gave up the main roar time this year because of it and when your out now and there are other vehicles in the car park its in the back of your mind that you could also be a target.

Still believe you have a better chance of dying driving to your hunting spot than being shot when you get there. Identify your target beyond ALL doubt, as said before there is always going to be incidents- accidents while there is humans involved, we are not infallible.

I wonder what are the statistics for bow hunters shooting at a "deer shape or form " ?

When you look at the stats It seems to be the young or the very experienced . The young seems to make sence , i.e. too excited and not enough experience .
Im in the older very experienced bracket ,and there is NO WAY IN HELL IM GOING TO SHOOT AT ANYTHING BUT A IDENTIFIED ANIMAL . I say that but am I ? . I used to hunt every weekend or second weekend for years , but now I get out Deer hunting maybe only 10-20 days a year , does this lack of hunting put extra pressure on the choices ill make on the hill . ( In the past I would have said to myself plenty of deer sign ill come back next weekend if I don't get one , not like now wait 6 weeks ) My mate and I have noticed that when we take a young fella out , they now out find us on Deer WTF ! In our thirtys we could find a twitching deer ear at 100 paces in poor light (maybe talking that up but get the idear ). I wonder how much older hunters failing eyesight has got to do with these incidents , lets face it once you hit mid 40s your eysight is poos . So i surpose your other senses take over , you smell deer ,you hear deer ,your brain fills in the blanks and you see a deer . Scary shit really !

I'm not going to get on that pedestal, I know that this could happen to me, and because I know it could happen to me it is always in my mind. People that don't think it could happen to them because they are so careful blah blah are probably the ones most likely to have it happen. Experience means nothing with this, in fact it probably works against you as you've gotten away with it so many times before.

I agree with the judges decision, what could you possibly do to punish a man that has just killed his own son?! Jail, fines etc can't compare to the world of hurt he is in. I bet he'd swap places with his son in a heart beat.

Nod court imposed sentences stop people from falling asleep at the wheel or losing concentration? I doubt it as it would be the last thing on their mind, just as it's the last thing on my mind when I squeeze a trigger.

The problem I have with this judge is that she has sent the wrong message to all hunters-so, if I do stuff up big time and blow away my mate, I'll walk free.
The guy that shot his son did not stare intently for 20 minutes at "the deer" and view it from several different angles before he carefully took the shot as he claimed in Court- he saw a movement, thought it was a deer because he "wanted" it to be a deer, brought his rifle up and "Bang".Often, we come under the influence of buck fever because we may have hunted unsuccessfully for hours and seen nothing, and our frustration and anxiety over rules our common sense. I agree with the last post- given the right circumstances, it could happen to most of us.

Good post Savage 1.
I can't speak for the future but think I am well past the stage of where it could have happened to me. When every animal was worth a dollar I took some shots, that on reflection, were not ideal.
I have no need to shoot as many animals as I used to and I generally only shoot yearlings for the table. I have not shot a red stag in the rut for years due to not finding what I want.

Someone brought it up earlier about eyesight. Mine is not as sharp as it used to be and I spend even more time because of that, looking at a deer before I decide whether to shoot it.

I do less and less bush hunting as the deer numbers are high and if I do it is mainly during the rut. I need to get a good look at a stag before I would take it as it would have to be in the 320DS class. I'm still looking😆
I don't give a toss about coming home empty handed. I have done so for the last 8 red roars.
I really struggle to believe you can study something at 20m for a period of time and decide to shoot. I have hunted just about every species of deer in NZ. I have yet to come across 1 of them that would not be on edge with me being that close for any length of time.
In my experience deer do not stand still unless trying to suss you out or they are asleep. Their mannerisms and movements are unique in the bush.
I am very familiar with human factors being a pilot. In aviation it relates to things that trick our perception and the like. I do not believe the mistakes made in aviation due to human factors relate to hunting no matter what any expert tries to say.

I empithise with the bloke who shot his son but I believe he was careless and did not see a deer or study his target with any detail.
It could happen to anyone that's a fact but if it happens to me I would have failed to observe the one rule that would prevent it happening. Not because I seen something imaginary.

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A lot of hunter doesn't seem to care much for shot placement it seems. Shooting at something that is probably a deer is not a style of hunting id ever go for.

Yup I don't like the 20 mins thing.
I wasn't there but if I was looking at what I thought was a deer within 20m for 20 minutes I would be thinking it was asleep or already dead.
I most likely would have spooked it with a loud fart or my clumsyness anyway.

I just don't buy it.



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ranger 888

The problem I have with this judge is that she has sent the wrong message to all hunters-so, if I do stuff up big time and blow away my mate, I'll walk free.
The guy that shot his son did not stare intently for 20 minutes at "the deer" and view it from several different angles before he carefully took the shot as he claimed in Court- he saw a movement, thought it was a deer because he "wanted" it to be a deer, brought his rifle up and "Bang".Often, we come under the influence of buck fever because we may have hunted unsuccessfully for hours and seen nothing, and our frustration and anxiety over rules our common sense. I agree with the last post- given the right circumstances, it could happen to most of us.

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Rubbish .... thats even more ridiculous that suggesting that tougher sentences would act as deterrent. Because that father was found to be not negligent, I'll just go out and blaze away? Deterence (fear of punishment) doesn't work for intentional crime, no chance of it working for unintended outcomes...

People shoot things because they think its something they are hunting. People are often careless, but not all are.... no-one will really know in any incident what that person experiences, but anyone who has had anything to do with people's recall of what has happened to them, knows that what people experience varies from person to person, when all are seeing the exact same scenario. Any policeman interviewing witnesses knows that to be true. It's the courts job to determine negligence. That court on balance called not... like R93 the 20 minutes thing makes you wonder, but remember the test is beyond all reasonable doubt.... the prosecution have to establish negligence for it to be applied...

The best chance of building awareness, is regular reminders of the trauma. So, frequent shootings are prescribed, not frequent court cases. Who thinks that is a good idea? If we are more aware we should be more likely to be careful. Proof of that is drink-drive social marketing.... they advertise outcomes, not court sentences. Who actually knows what the likely penalties are for varying drink driving offences.....? I haven't got a clue, thats not what stops me....

Where did the 20 min looking at target come from???
Sgt Berryman said he took two to three minutes with his naked eye and his rifle scope to confirm it was deer, moving from left to right as he watched.
Also i believe the range was quoted at 40m not 20m.
If we are going to debate this we really need to start with the correct facts.

don't know, just guilty of repeating without checking... can someone confirm..? we cannot determine the correct outcome from that case anyway, we have to accept the court does that job...

I haven't read the original report linked by the OP as I don't have Dropbox but to me the original post was about understanding the human factors at play here rather than laying blame or consequence.
Highlighting the way in which the brain rationalises visual illusions that can be complicated by simple things such as mood, weather, light, fatigue, pressure, sound, expectation, past experience, inexperience etc etc can only be a good thing.

Hi, this is a public folder so you don't need Dropbox yourself. Just click on the link and you'll find the file is the top one in the list.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kdopwcxcq...4jKDuly_a?dl=0

I see the file is also on the hunter safety lab website

Cheers

Regarding the court's decision I'd prefer to wait and read the judgment. And of course what really happened and "the facts" that can be proven are not necessarily the same.

I endorse on2it's closing footnote

"Regarding the court's decision I'd prefer to wait and read the judgment. And of course what really happened and "the facts" that can be proven are not necessarily the same."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R93

Good post Savage 1.
I can't speak for the future but think I am well past the stage of where it could have happened to me. When every animal was worth a dollar I took some shots, that on reflection, were not ideal.
I have no need to shoot as many animals as I used to and I generally only shoot yearlings for the table. I have not shot a red stag in the rut for years due to not finding what I want.

Someone brought it up earlier about eyesight. Mine is not as sharp as it used to be and I spend even more time because of that, looking at a deer before I decide whether to shoot it.

I do less and less bush hunting as the deer numbers are high and if I do it is mainly during the rut. I need to get a good look at a stag before I would take it as it would have to be in the 320DS class. I'm still looking😆
I don't give a toss about coming home empty handed. I have done so for the last 8 red roars.
I really struggle to believe you can study something at 20m for a period of time and decide to shoot. I have hunted just about every species of deer in NZ. I have yet to come across 1 of them that would not be on edge with me being that close for any length of time.
In my experience deer do not stand still unless trying to suss you out or they are asleep. Their mannerisms and movements are unique in the bush.
I am very familiar with human factors being a pilot. In aviation it relates to things that trick our perception and the like. I do not believe the mistakes made in aviation due to human factors relate to hunting no matter what any expert tries to say.

I empithise with the bloke who shot his son but I believe he was careless and did not see a deer or study his target with any detail.
It could happen to anyone that's a fact but if it happens to me I would have failed to observe the one rule that would prevent it happening. Not because I seen something imaginary.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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The 20mins is a Chinese whisper, it was claimed 2 mins. Even that may be stretching it though.
Im a believer in the possibility of human factors having a significant influence on these events. Like you I studied it in aviation but Iv also researched it a bit further and Iv had plenty of little non hunting related events that have convinced me. Dealing with anything human brain related is going to have contradictions and I understand why some don't agree, it could well be that its not something that we are all susceptible to, but getting hunters to understand it might go some way to reducing the number of events. It sure as hell cant hurt. Its not about a defense after the fact but making people aware. As you know I'm with you on the identifying the animal well beyond just "its a deer" Like you I want to know what sex, approx age ect.

Fair enough. Just because I have not experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen for others I spose.

I have spent ages trying to identify bushes, stumps and things that were the right colour and shape of a deer in the bush and in low light.
But something in my gut always told me I was wrong. Not once did any of those things get up and run off or get shot.

How many of you have searched for an item in your workshop or some other place and not been able to find it. Then go back later and it was sitting in plain sight all the time. The eyes saw it but the brain did not process the information.
Your brains are a very complicated organ and nobody fully understands how it works.
I believe the hunter truly believes he saw a deer prior to pulling the trigger.
How do we prevent it happening again?
I dont know the answer

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R93

Fair enough. Just because I have not experienced it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen for others I spose.

I have spent ages trying to identify bushes, stumps and things that were the right colour and shape of a deer in the bush and in low light.
But something in my gut always told me I was wrong. Not once did any of those things get up and run off or get shot.

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I think a lot of us have had the same experience but then I look at traffic lights and see red and green and I have a mate who sees both as grey, color blindness is understood today. Dyslexia was unknown until recent times but its now well accepted. We are all wired a little differently but I fear most will have no idea if it could happen to them untill it does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BobGibson

How many of you have searched for an item in your workshop or some other place and not been able to find it. Then go back later and it was sitting in plain sight all the time. The eyes saw it but the brain did not process the information.
Your brains are a very complicated organ and nobody fully understands how it works.
I believe the hunter truly believes he saw a deer prior to pulling the trigger.
How do we prevent it happening again?
I dont know the answer

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Happens to me all the time. But I have seen the little green men that do it😆

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Hi, unfortunately there is not a written judgment for the Invercargill discharge without conviction but I have requested the judge's sentencing notes.
There's some discussion about whether the police might appeal the decision but as I understand it, appeals can only be on questions of law not questions of fact (what happened).
The reason for this is because the appeal court is not in a position to listen to the evidence, assess the credibility of the witnesses etc.
And in this country, along with many others based on hundreds of years of English law, the rule against double jeopardy remains. In other words, you can't be tried for the same thing twice.
P.S. I'm not a practicing lawyer so take my comments with a grain of salt.