Thread: Response to the Law and Order Select committee

I have had a rack built for Mums place. AO was happy. It is only so when I go up that end of the country I have somewhere to put my shooter(s) if I need to do some grocery shopping etc. It is OK for a few days etc but I would never leave one there if I was not staying there at the time.

Originally Posted by GravelBen

Have to agree with that. You could have a safe/gun room built into the house with reinforced concrete on 3 sides and a wooden door but a "metal safes only" rule would make it fail, sure you could hack through the door with an axe but it wouldn't be any quicker or easier than opening many commercial A-cat safes with the same axe.

Maybe AOs need clearer guidelines because you do hear of some strange interpretations of what is acceptable or not, but every time I've had gun security examined the AO has been practical and interested in it being fit for purpose rather than just ticking off a checklist of 'features'.

Had a good chat with one of them about racks/chains etc, his attitude to that was that they're ok for occasional use but he doesn't like the idea of people using them for permanent long-term storage, especially with multiple guns. Mind you I knew someone who used a chain around a rafter to secure an old shotgun that only got used about once a year, it was probably safer than most safes because any would-be thief would have to climb into the ceiling cavity to find it!

This is what amazes me about vetter's and AO's opinions/interpretations/attitudes - why would a rack be OK for occasional but not long term when the opportunist thief could happen to be in your premises on day one of your short term use of a rack. The rack is either a tick or a cross, time in use shouldn't come into it.

And yes, strong guidelines/standards are required to overcome this vetter variability. Said standards would turn into a nightmare but there has to be a better system than exists now.

I also perceive that the newer vetters and AO's are less likely nowadays to have a mechanical or practical background.

When you have some nice older rifles that rarely get used, to have them on display is a lot better than in the back of some dark safe. Trying to find ammo would be hard for me, let alone some loser who stole one. Money wise would be the prob.

Originally Posted by zimmer

This is what amazes me about vetter's and AO's opinions/interpretations/attitudes - why would a rack be OK for occasional but not long term when the opportunist thief could happen to be in your premises on day one of your short term use of a rack. The rack is either a tick or a cross, time in use shouldn't come into it.

And yes, strong guidelines/standards are required to overcome this vetter variability. Said standards would turn into a nightmare but there has to be a better system than exists now.

I also perceive that the newer vetters and AO's are less likely nowadays to have a mechanical or practical background.

I do see your point. In the some situations the rack is there to comply with the security requirements as required by the current law- That is to secure against people who are in the dwelling who you need to make sure are unable to access or play with said firearm. The law around A cat security is NOT aimed at preventing burglars to access but stopping opportunistic or curious hands from causing harm to those nearby. (Think visitors, children etc rather than burglar) This is because these situations were the ones most likely to cause harm. Whether this is the best position moving forward, that is not the point. The point is a rack that secures a rifle to the wall so it cannot be easily removed and discharged is the law as it stands.

Long term a safe to protect against theft is common sense, and warranted given the value of some firearms and the lengths to which some will go to get them, nut if traveling to go hunting away from home, do you put a 6mm safe in the boot so you can secure your firearms at your unlicenced mates place on the way? Its not practical and likely not to happen.

I'll be ok now
The Minster wishes me the best.

Dear ............*
Thank you for writing to Minister Bennett on the recent Government response to firearms select committee report.
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The Minister has noted your email and asked me to pass on a quick note to thank you for taking the time to write in.* She really appreciates the feedback and passes on her best wishes.**
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Salote
Ministerial Secretary | Office of Hon Paula Bennett
Deputy Prime Minister | Minister for Climate Change Issues | Minister of Police
Minister of State Services | Minister of Tourism | Minister for Women | MP for Upper Harbour
Executive Wing 7.6 | Private Bag 18888 | Parliament Buildings | Wellington 6160 | New Zealand

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Originally Posted by zimmer

This is what amazes me about vetter's and AO's opinions/interpretations/attitudes - why would a rack be OK for occasional but not long term when the opportunist thief could happen to be in your premises on day one of your short term use of a rack. The rack is either a tick or a cross, time in use shouldn't come into it.

I disagree, if a gun is only there occasionally then the probability of an opportunist thief happening to be there at the same time is massively lower than if guns were there regularly.

Lets make some simplified numbers up and assume there is a chance any house will be burgled once a year... so call it a 1/365 chance of a burglary happening on any given day (reality would be a far lower chance but for arguments sake).

If a gun is there 360 days of the year then the probability of a burglary when its there is (1/365)*(360/365) = 1/370 chance the burglary will happen when the gun is there.
If a gun is there 5 days of the year then the probability of a burglary when its there is (1/365)*(5/365) = 1/26645 chance the burglary will happen when the gun is there.

Its quite reasonable that the level of risk mitigation is related to the probability of being needed.

Yeah, but you know murphy , he always strikes when you forgot to lock door , or chain your gun up or anything like that...

Originally Posted by Maca49

When you have some nice older rifles that rarely get used, to have them on display is a lot better than in the back of some dark safe. Trying to find ammo would be hard for me, let alone some loser who stole one. Money wise would be the prob.

Problem is the loser who knicks it won't have a clue. Your antique 16 ga hammer shotty would have the hacksaw on it in no time. End up as a crappy "stand and deliver" type pistol and swapped to it's meth dealer for fuck all. Meth dealer then uses it as a patu to beat loser when he can't fit the 12 ga shells into it.

Horse.
Flog
goddam

Originally Posted by paulyc

Yep looks good, So now can I get my gun list back from the Police ?

That should be quite straight forward, 'sell' them to a trusted licensed friend.

Submit an Official information act request for the records. Submit an update request based on the previously mentioned 'sale' submit another OIA request to confirm record of your holding's has been updated and perhaps subsequently re-acquire ?

Originally Posted by Steve123

Problem is the loser who knicks it won't have a clue. Your antique 16 ga hammer shotty would have the hacksaw on it in no time. End up as a crappy "stand and deliver" type pistol and swapped to it's meth dealer for fuck all. Meth dealer then uses it as a patu to beat loser when he can't fit the 12 ga shells into it.

There's a film on that!

Yep, and a bloody good one it is! Northern Monkeys!

I have 2 steel safes one E cat rated one not.
With my tools of choice either of them would be empty in under 2 minutes.
I am not a safe cracker and do not have any superpowers. The skills and knowledge required are nothing that would not be learned in a prison workshop.

One has to be realistic about security. You can ONLY stop the opertunist thief.

Sent from my SM-G800Y using Tapatalk

I've seen some shocking security arrangements. I will never understand why some of us are so flippant about security. Personally I wouldn't leave 25 grand lying around in a shitty old cabinet that will take two seconds to Smash into.
It's irresponsible not to have a decent safe. I'm ok with the rest of the recommendations.

Originally Posted by jakewire

I'll be ok now
The Minster wishes me the best.

Dear ............*
Thank you for writing to Minister Bennett on the recent Government response to firearms select committee report.
*
The Minister has noted your email and asked me to pass on a quick note to thank you for taking the time to write in.* She really appreciates the feedback and passes on her best wishes.**
*
Kind regards
*
Salote
Ministerial Secretary | Office of Hon Paula Bennett
Deputy Prime Minister | Minister for Climate Change Issues | Minister of Police
Minister of State Services | Minister of Tourism | Minister for Women | MP for Upper Harbour
Executive Wing 7.6 | Private Bag 18888 | Parliament Buildings | Wellington 6160 | New Zealand

*

I got the same,wonderful