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Thread: Secure Storage Requirements Police Consultation

  1. #1
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    Secure Storage Requirements Police Consultation

    https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...e-of-firearms/

    Everyone needs to read this and make a submission if they have any concerns.

    Submissions close on the 1st of December this year so you only have 12 days to react.

    Dont ignore this , please.
    Pengy and A330driver like this.
    Cats have nine lives-which makes them ideal for experimentation...

  2. #2
    Member Marty Henry's Avatar
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    Just read both versions as the league is dull at present. Might need to compare but there are differences that need a closer reading. Thanks for the heads up.

  3. #3
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    So the rack I had put in for 'visitors' rifles when they come to stay no longer cuts it if they show up with a semi auto and I have to find room in my main safe..... And then let them know where the keys are if they show up when i'm at work?? Seems so much safer.... NOT

    Whilst I approve of an increase in security measures, I can see where this could be going for semi auto rifles... Dont hold any endorsements but can see this will make it more difficult to get them in the future... (should get off my arse and do it now I guess)

    Can anyone else see that in the future ou will have to buy your safe off the police I ensure it meets their requirements.... Even though it would be 'legal'
    Last edited by 223nut; 19-11-2017 at 08:36 AM.

  4. #4
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    In the end of those under restricted weapons 33A (2) it says that Police can impose any condition they see fit to the use. Is that in current legislation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog View Post
    In the end of those under restricted weapons 33A (2) it says that Police can impose any condition they see fit to the use. Is that in current legislation?
    No. It says military style semi-automatic firearms. Not restricted weapons.
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  6. #6
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    if you have these concerns then you need to make a submission , in intelligent english. If you dont make your concerns known then you cant complain when we all get shafted
    Beavis, tetawa, Feral and 1 others like this.
    Cats have nine lives-which makes them ideal for experimentation...

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by systolic View Post
    No. It says military style semi-automatic firearms. Not restricted weapons.
    Ok, is that in the current legistlation for MSSAs, and if you want to be pedantic about it pistols as well

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilli_Dog View Post
    Ok, is that in the current legistlation for MSSAs, and if you want to be pedantic about it pistols as well
    Yes. It has been for years. It's the section where the cops can impose conditions on your endorsement like you can only use a MSSA on a range if they want.

    Conditions on endorsements for Pistols and Restricted Weapons are under a different section of the Arms Act. Section 32. (Which is printed right above the part you misread).
    Settings - My Account - Edit Ignore List - Add a Member to Your List - User Name - Okay.

  9. #9
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    A quick comparison online shows that nearly everything is different. But that includes the language used in the description paragraphs.

    https://draftable.com/compare/sRRnQtdFkTAy

    I have rear them but am at a bit of a loss as to what to say in my email other than that semi autos shouldn't be treated any differently than other firearms.

    Sent from my GT-I9506 using Tapatalk

  10. #10
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    Team, here's a raw rip down while I drank coffee this morning. Not complete, and only looks at the November Draft so far. Don't copy and paste it verbatim, but use it to prompt your own ideas and individual responses...

    Although Police have sought consultation with the public, this consultation does not appear to be genuine, nor in good faith. The general firearms community has only become aware of this consultation through social media on or around 18 November 2017. As there is no date (only a month) posted on the Police web page advising of the consultation, it is difficult to determine how long the April and November draft documents have been available for review. With a close off date specified by Police of 1 Dec 17, this leaves only 11-12 days at most for the community to consider the documents, analyse the differences between current policy and each of the April and December drafts, seek legal advice on individual or collective community impacts, and respond accordingly. Further, the timeline for publishing the final version of the policy is specified on the Police website as being mid-December 2017. This explicitly states that there is Police intent to finalise draft documentation within two weeks of having closed off submissions from the public and firearms community. It is difficult to believe there is genuine intent to consider submissions in good faith, discuss concerns with the community, negotiate amendments or investigate alternatives to any areas of policy concern therein. In summary, both the consideration time available to the public, and the proposed finalisation date of this policy are unreasonable and not in good faith if genuine consultation and a quality, equitable policy is to be formulated. I request that NZ Police extend both milestones in order to demonstrate good faith and genuine consultation with the community.
    Regarding the content and wording of the November 17 draft policy itself, there are many areas of concern I have, both in a more general sense, as well as pertaining to the attempt to codify specific security requirements. I have attempted to capture these points as best as possible, noting the policy formatting is not indexed with paragraph numbers or lettering to allow clear referral to specific aspects of the policy. For ease of tracking I have included my concerns as an enclosure to this letter in spreadsheet format.


    1 The background text at the start of the document presents the policy as "guidelines". On this basis, it is understood that the policy proposes security requirements, but does not specify a mandatory requirement to comply under any legislative onus. If these guidelines are to be legally binding for a licensee, the governing legislation should be cited in order to legitimise the policy, otherwise the policy will remain a collection of security "options".

    2 "The background text at the start of the document specifies ""The New Zealand Police (the Police) administers the
    provisions of the Act and delivers services and enforcement to meet the intent of the Act""" This is not accurate. The Act and its Regulations do not contain the word "intent" anywhere. The use of the word intent implies Police can subjectively apply aspects of legislation. Law is law. Remove "intent" wording and adhere to the police mandate of enforcing law as a police function under the Police Act 2008.

    3 "Where materials, method of construction or locks do not comply with the Police published standards, remedial action is required to comply." There is no requirement for a licensee to comply with any Police standards by law, only the legal requirements specified in the Act and regulations. Who determines what the remedial actions are and what any shortfalls are? The only legal requirement by Police is to determine that a room is of stout construction / strong room / steel box,safe, cabinet etc as per the Arms Act or Regulations.

    4 "Although the total security of the residence will be considered, racks will only be considered for approval in the following circumstances: 1. Used only for shotguns and bolt action rifles. 2. Not being used for the secure storage of centre-fire or rim-fire semi-automatic rifles. 3. When they are bolted to a solid floor and in a concealed location, such as a wardrobe which has a solid door with a strong locking mechanism. 4. When they are bolted to a reinforced roof strut or supporting beam in the roof cavity. 5. They are able to withstand violent pushing and tugging and not wobble, become loose or welded points becoming fatigued." There is no legal basis for the Police to apply such limitations and further break down A Category firearms into sub-groups, no specify where in a residence weapons racks may or may not be installed, so long as they comply with the Act and Regulations. Remove all Police-applied limitations to the installation of weapon racks in this draft policy.

    5 Wooden cabinets must meet the standard of “stout” as applied by the. Definition of Stout or reference to governing law is missing. Complete the sentence.

    6 "The Police define “stout” as being able to withstand an attack by hand tools (not power tools) for at least ten minutes." This is not a definition of Stout. Why is 10 minutes proposed as the defining time frame? An oxy torch is a hand tool, a thermic lance is a handtool. A jack is a hand tool. All of which will defeat even an e-cat safe in under ten minutes. Remove the definition of Stout as being resistant to a 10 minute attack as it is meaningless and bears no outcome on whether firearms will be taken by a thief or not.

    7 Although the total security of the residence will be considered, wooden cabinets will only be considered for approval in the following circumstances: 1. Only being used for shotguns and bolt action rifles. 2. Not being used for of centre-fire or rim-fire semi-automatic rifles. 3. When they are bolted to a solid floor and wall studs/dwangs and in a concealed location within the residence with the door leading to the room that they are of solid construction, with a strong locking mechanism 4. When they are bolted to a reinforced roof strut or supporting beam in the roof cavity. 5. When they are able to withstand violent pushing and togging and not wobble or become loose. There is no legal basis for the Police to apply such limitations and further break down A Category firearms into sub-groups, no specify where in a residence weapons racks may or may not be installed, so long as they comply with the Act and Regulations. Remove all Police-applied limitations to the installation of wooden containers of stout construction in this draft policy.

    8 Regarding Steel safes or containers: "Fixed to the building on two surfaces with at least 6 mm fasteners and fastened to a rigid surface or support such as concrete, brick or through plaster board to a stud or dwang. Fasteners of 6mm x 75mm long will ensure at least 50mm of thread is engaged in the rigid support. Use heavy gauge ‘coach’ screws anchored by at least 50mm and a large washer placed under each coach screw head into the framing. If secured into concrete, use similar gauge chemical or expanding bolts. Floor fixing to a wooden floor must be completely through the floor. The bolts will require a stout backing plate or sufficiently large washers to prevent them from being pulled through the floor" "Why should a safe or steel container need to be fixed to two surfaces? This does not necessarily increase strength of attachments and is not always possible in rented premises, where getting permission to secure to the floor alone can be problematic for those who are not owner-occupiers.

    " "Amend to specify fastening to the floor alone as an aceptable standard of fixing (eg four ppoints of attachement to the floor alone rather than say two to the floor and two to the wall.

    "
    9 The policy proposes transition dates to move away from racks and wooden storage for non-endorsed and semi-automatic weapons. This is not in accordance with the Act or Regulations which by law permits the storage of firearms in such arrangements. Remove an Police-initiated policy restrictions on wooden containers and metal racks. No transition plan is required as a result.

    10 That the steel is Xmm thick It is impossible to comment on a specification that is yet to be determined. Complete the specification proposal so it may be commented on.

    11 RECEIPT DETACH RECEIPT AND PLACE IN APPLICANTS FILE APPLICANT DETAILS Surname Forename(s) Preferred name Date of birth / / I acknowledge receipt from the New Zealand Police of a copy of "SECURITY CONDITIONS AND REQUIREMENTS FOR FIREARMS LICENCES AND ENDORSEMENTS" (Police Form POL67N). I understand that the Police may revoke the licence or endorsement(s) if I fail to observe any of the conditions imposed by the Arms Act 1983, the Arms Regulations 1992 and the New Zealand Police as set out in the document. I further understand that my security precautions must be inspected and approved by a member of the police before I can receive my firearms licence or possess any firearm, military style semi-automatic firearm, pistol, or restricted weapon. Licence holder’s signature Date Witnessed by Licensing Vetting Officer / Police Employee name Signature Designation QID Date There is a receipt for that is attached to the rear of the policy which a licensee is required to sign to acknowledge the policy and the law. Remove as there is no legal requirement for a licensee to acknowledge police policy or law by signature, only to comply with the law.

    12 There is no mention of storage of firearms in NZDF armouries. It is current PNHQ policy that a member of NZDF is not permitted to store MSSA in an NZDF armoury unless living in barracks (confirmed by local AO in consultation with PNHQ in 2016). Yet an NZDF armoury is presumably a higher security standard than any average private residence. What about when NZDF personnel deploy overseas? Allow NZDF personnel to secure B,C and E category firearms in NZDF armouries.
    tetawa, Pengy, Ryan and 13 others like this.

  11. #11
    Member stretch's Avatar
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    Police draft document references British Standard 7558, yet they do not provide that document for our reading.

    It's available online for £50 https://shop.bsigroup.com/ProductDet...00000000264031 or $NZ262 https://shop.standards.govt.nz/catal...2%28BS%29/view.

    Not helpful when you're given 11 days to provide feedback. Do the police expect every respondent to buy their own copy of the standard?

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  12. #12
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    Great stuff @Feral. Musta been a helluva coffee. A bucket of it?
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  13. #13
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    https://www.standards.govt.nz/assets...egislation.pdf

    From MBIE (Standards NZ): A standard is not, of itself, mandatory or legally required. A standard has to be incorporated by reference in an Act or delegated legislation in order to be mandatory. Once referenced it becomes part of the technical regulation framework. Ie there is no way Police can make it mandatory to conform to the British Standard because it is not legislated.

    When incorporating a standard by reference, regulators should ensure that:
    the standard’s technical content is fully understood and aligned to policy objectives
    the standard is publicly available at the time of incorporation by reference
    there is a clear distinction between the mandatory (normative) content of a standard which does have
    legal effect, and guidelines or explanatory (informative) content which do not have legal effect1

    • the standard can be complied with in New Zealand, and any specified tests can be done by
    testing facilities that have been accredited under the International Laboratory Accreditation
    Cooperation (ILAC) Arrangement.2 In New Zealand the organisation that participates on ILAC is
    International Accreditation New Zealand (IANZ)3
    the standard is held by the regulator in the form of a signed hard copy, as evidence of
    incorporation.

    Standards can be:
    referenced in Acts or Regulations as legally mandatory
    • referenced in Acts or Regulations as ‘acceptable solutions’ or ‘means of compliance’. This
    ensures compliance with legislation but does not prevent the use of an alternative method,
    provided it meets the specified legislative criteria

    • used by a government agency to detail a required condition of contract with an external supplier
    • incorporated into non-regulatory material as examples of best practice or guidance for industry
    • employed as a means of compliance with industry regulation, for example, specifying
    requirements for audit certification
    • promoted as a means of dealing with legal liability issues. For example, compliance with various
    risk management standards may be cited in court as proof that all reasonable steps were taken.
    Marty Henry likes this.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by keneff View Post
    Great stuff @Feral. Musta been a helluva coffee. A bucket of it?
    Nah I get paid to do this sort of technical policy stuff. This was just a quick hack tho, not comprehensive or legally referenced.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
    keneff likes this.

  15. #15
    Member keneff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzza View Post
    https://kiwigunblog.wordpress.com/20...e-of-firearms/

    Everyone needs to read this and make a submission if they have any concerns.

    Submissions close on the 1st of December this year so you only have 12 days to react.

    Dont ignore this , please.
    My main concern is that NZ Police seem to be able to change rules, move goalposts and fuck their fellow citizens around, with impunity. O'Connor once stated on TV, that the Police are "the intimidation arm, The enforcement arm, of Government." What happened to the separation of the police and government. Soon Police will be governing the Government, furthering The Police Association's goal of making NZ a police state, like mother England. Or Cousin Australia. Our politicians don't seem to mind too much.
    Steve123 likes this.
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