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Cognitive bias - If you can ignore the fact the authors of this may have their own bias the attached report offers the best insight into why these deaths still occur and why they probably will continue to:
http://www.huntersafetylab.com/wp-co...rs-review1.pdf
Can't be accidents More like negligence from the shooter
Antz
People being too comfortable in the fact they'd never get it wrong? Insufficient training?
Could only be two possible answers to your question @Mike H
Negligence = Failure to "Positively Identify Your Target".
Deliberate Intent = 'Target Was Positively Identified".
Cheers
Pete
Its pretty easy to point the finger and speculate at these tragic events. There is a shitload more people hunting even from when I first started years ago ( and Im not old ) To many people eager to bag something instead of thinking about safety first.
That may be the case but since 1979 there's been on average one hunting fatality every 9 months. This is not just a recent occurrence.Quote:
Originally Posted by oneshot
i recon its because theres hunters and shooters some people just want to shoot something where a hunter has a specific target in mind and only shoots that target
What's that old saying ?
Definition of insanity : doing the same thing and expecting a different result....
Interesting Reading . A point that doesn't get mentioned is the pressure to shoot an anamil . As in fly in hunters paying $600 plus and felling the need to come home with a deer , or a internet hunter talked it up for two three weeks ..... or the president of the deer stalkers needing to live up to expectations ? .
You can be a "shooter" without ever hunting. Lots of people involved in shooting sport on target ranges that never hunt... This is a hunting issue. The only sector in the NZ shooting community where this type of thing happens regular like clockwork is amongst hunters.Quote:
Originally Posted by northdude
It is not a Firearms Licencing issue, it is not a shooting issue... It is a HUNTING issue, and it needs to be addressed as such.
What sort of distance are these incidents occurring at? We're talking 10's of meters, right? This technical solution might've worked, but it relies on widespread adoption, and once you put active safety measures in place, you run the risk of getting the opposite result, where a hunter thinks "well my gadget / balloted permit says there's no other hunters in the area, so what I'm seeing must not be human."
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People love a simple explanation or excuse. Something easy to comprehend. Taking a look through these threads from today and damn it's scary to see the amount of people who have an attitude that only idiots do this sort of thing. It could be any one of us here that makes this mistake.
My most powerful and frightening experience was a few years ago when a friend and I flew into a tussock basin I had seen a lot of deer in when shooting out of a machine months before. We were sidling along the open tops glassing down into these guts when a deer ran out of a gut about 300m in front and below us. It ran along the tussock for about 10 seconds then sat down, turned side ways and suddenly it became a hare only 60m away. I hadn't raised my rifle but I was absolutely gobsmacked. Clear, open tussock and I had shot plenty of deer by that stage in my life. My eyes didn't get a good perception of depth in that split second and my brain had literally made a decision to fill in the blanks and complete an idea I already had, I was going to see a deer in here.
Am I an idiot? Was I a once a year hunter? Every single one of us needs to recognise this can happen to us. It is not a simple fix.
The first step is for people to be aware of cognitive bias and the risks. I learnt it a few years ago after there'd been 2 or 3 deaths in one roar. I was so adamant I was going to absolutely treat every deer as a human until otherwise proven that I literally mistook a deer for a human. I was adamant I was watching a tramper. It took me several minutes to actually see that it was a deer. I swear I saw clothing and everything. This was the reverse of what has happened to people who are adamant they're going to see a deer. The brain plays tricks and fills in the blanks so they see what they want to see. Once you accept it can happen to you you'll be much more aware of it and less likely to be affected.
Whatever it is,speculation without the facts is really just that. However we,as a group, seem to be faced wit this type of event year on year with awfully similar circumstance leading to our speculated (educated guess) result.
Whats the answer, blowed if i know, all i know is i have spent many hours,days,weeks in and out of the bush and more often than not empty handed.
Now that's not to say i haven't seen animals or I'm a shit hunter what I'm saying is i have always taken the time to really watch my quarry and decide if, in fact, this is the animal i want or, lets face it, I've blown the shot:ORLY:.
I have watched some really good vids on you tube and in turn i have seen some bloody terrible vids. Some really bad firearms handling and attitudes are displayed and when you mention this to them they get really quite defensive or block/turn off comments. Are these the source of increased hunter numbers? I'm not convinced. What I can say is the younger (<25) guys aren't the ones that turn up to range days or interested in disciplined shooting (in our club).
Im with @ebf on this one, this is a hunting issue and as a group (hunters) we need to take ownership of it and make steps to preventing the yearly recurrence. Now before you get up me and say "I'm good, i know my shit" that may not stop you from being shot/at yourself.
It seems there's no simple answers just devastated families and a nervous hunting fraternity.
These are not "accidental" shootings, they are "unintentional". Calling them accidental makes them seem unavoidable. These are all preventable.
If you are going to argue about semantics to fit your world view you should try to be more precise. They are an intentional shooting in error with an accidental outcome. Accidents can be avoided, but not without the cost of the elimination of the activity.Quote:
These are not "accidental" shootings, they are "unintentional". Calling them accidental makes them seem unavoidable. These are all preventable.
Like it or not, there will always be a statistical error rate. Ever heard the saying "nobody's perfect?"
That is not to say that we shouldn't be trying to reduce the error rate and its catastrophic effects....
The biggest impediment to this issue in my opinion is the constant repetitive thoughtless mantra "he failed to identify his target"..... its a bit like saying "going faster is more dangerous" equally as useless...
The right question is "Why did he fail to successfully identify his target"?
Until we understand the reasons why he failed, we will not make progress at reducing these incidents... and the lock em up forever brigade are just sacrificing another victim as a selfish emotional response....
You quite right, they have failed to identify their target and the right question is ""Why did he /she fail to successfully identify his/her target"" Theres a easy answer, they have simply not seen enough of the target to confirm it 100 percent. Its as simple as that. Nearly in every case the shooter has seen part of his target that he swears was a deer.....ONLY PART of it. Their brains telling them its certainly a deer, but the fact is they seen a very small part and without waiting to confirm it seeing more of the target they go ahead and fire at something they have done prob many times before, and each time it was a deer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
What you have to remember is the facts...the facts are in nearly all the cases involving hunting shootings (apart from spotlight ones ) its nearly always a very experienced hunter, 45 and over, been hunting a min of ten years or more, these are the facts.
Its not new shooters/hunters, its not young idoits, its not drunken fools. Its experienced hunters which have done alot of hunting, shot lots of deer, and in the past they seen time an time again parts of deer that have always been a deer. Its very easy for these tpyes of guys to let their guard down and go , shit, theres a deer and bang without seeing the whole animal.
These are the facts, so somewhere there lies the answer in stopping senseless deaths. New laws arent the answer, edcuating is, but targeting everyone, not just the new hunters, but certainly the experenced ones as well
Its not that easy and its not the whole answer.... but it is the right question and it is not being dealt with adequately....
i was meaning when hunting you dont hear of target shooters shooting each otherQuote:
Originally Posted by ebf
Well in actual fact it is. what i wrote is the facts.....if every hunter actual didnt take a shot at a so called deer etc if they can only see a small part of it they be no deaths. Deer cant turn into humans , and if you see most of the animal to confirm the id 100 pcent you not going to have people shooting deër"" that all of a sudden turn into a humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Isnt that the facts? People are not shooting at movement or firing blind, as i said, they nearly always experienced hunters, older hunters that think they can see a deer, and they totally believe what they looking at is a deer. The problem is they can only see part of what the target it is, and the eyes and brain plays tricks on you .
Seeing a far bigger percentage of the deer and these shootings cant happen.....it is as simple as that
People who shoot other hunters are suffering from. Hero Fuckwit Syndrome.
Why do drivers continue to crash cars? Cos people are human and shit happens.
In my opinion:
No matter how perfect the world is or the world you personally live in, people make mistakes- that being said when you are issued a FAL and have sat the test you personally have agreed to the terms of that agreement. By breaking these rules the out come has the potential to be nothing short of a disaster.
In my opinion there are 3 main ways how some one can be shot:
1. Shooter not identifying target beyond all doubt
2. Bullet goes through target and carries on
3. Intentional shooting
Whilst I am sure that anyone that has or does mistakenly kill or hurt someone feels horrible but no matter the situation it was avoidable and that person or persons should be fairly and firmly dealt with.
No matter the size of and how hairy your balls are or how much or how little hunting you have done nor your age depicts the rules. The rules of having a FAL are the rules and anyone that does not comply with them simply should not have a FAL nor be should they have access to a firearm.
My 2 cents
In other countries you hunt with a tag, that states the age, sex and species you are allowed to shoot. While sounding oppressive to NZ hunters, it does force the hunter there to correctly identify what they are aiming at. The penalites can be financial, loss of firearms and even vehicle.
While I'm not suggesting this is a way forward, it may eventually come to something so direct in order to deal with this horrible situation.
No its not... some people think they are seeing the whole deer... and they are still wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by deer243
Secondally.... its often impossible to see all of the deer... and yet most people who shoot deer only seeing parts of deer are still actually correct....
Like I said its not that simple...
Some people have mushed up brains.. There eyes transmit an image of a person or part thereof.. And there shit house neglagent brain converts the image to a deer or part there of...
I have no feelings for people that shoot another in this situation other than that they should shoot themselves in remorse.
Like all the good looking ladies when ya drunk?
Quote:
Some people have mushed up brains.. There eyes transmit an image of a person or part thereof.. And there shit house neglagent brain converts the image to a deer or part there of...
I have no feelings for people that shoot another in this situation other than that they should shoot themselves in remorse.
And you are the problem....Understanding why this happens is the key to reducing it happening... with your attitude we have no chance of learning how to reduce it...
Because the bullshit you write doesn't reflect the fact that we all are equally as susceptible to making mistakes. I wouldn't hunt with anyone that doesn't understand that, and seeks to mitigate that reality.
Sidney, agree with picking who you go shooting with, be it hunting or range, the F-wits are the ones on the range the consider an unloaded firearm can be pointed anywhere, and I like to be behind the guy with the rifle when hunting, give him first chance, but know Im not going to cop it in the back. Of course with time and a few trips you know the ones you can trust and ditch the dickheads, I have hunted with some great, safety aware guys, that I was happy to shoot independently in the same area, after making a plan.
Right on, and whilst the vast majority continue to maintain the attitude/culture of "it would never happen to me" it will continue to happen for whatever reasons/route causes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney
Mike ,
I cannot believe that anybody or infact anything in this country is accidently shot [ except maybe when some dick puts a bullet through the roof or floor of his or his mate truck].
Everything I have ever shot at has been no accident. I have deliberately pulled the trigger.
People need to think about that, it is not an accident, it was done on purpose.
Forgive me if this has been over discussed already,
I would like to suggest a move away from the phrase Identify your target beyond all doubt.
The internal monolouge goes "is that a deer?, it looks like one, yep it's a deer/no it's not a deer."
The trouble is the whole time we're trying to confirm or exclude an underlying thought of deer. This leads us into a conifirmational bias - wether we think we know better and would never do that, or not.
A better question would be "is that a person, could it be a person, it could be a person/no way its a deer"
the confirmation bias then leads us to see more of reasons it could be a person.
It seems that the people involved in these tragedies did identify their target, but were unfortunately wrong.
Being wrong when thinking it's a person only leads to an escaped deer.
Only one part of a huge problem I realise, but it seems worthy of (thoughtful) discussion to me.
I brooded a bit on the deceased today as I went south and looked at the Ruahines. The sombre feeling was not dissipated when I came back.A family is no doubt grieving heavily at a loss at only 25 years.