1911 vs P220

hey there

i've been pistol shooting for a couple of years now. i've got a couple of 9mm's, a Springfield XD for IPSC and a Tanfoglio Combat for action. (action has since added a production class but i enjoy the thrill of starting a match cocked-and-locked.) i bought both pistols without having shot them or their equivalents beforehand because that's how i roll, yo. i have no intention of modifying any pistol i own as i like the idea of 'competing' with a production pistol (this may change as age takes its toll).

i'm looking to buy a 45 because:
1. i'll be able to see the holes in the targets as i make them (rather than walking up after the match and hoping against hope), and
2. because i want a 45.

i've got a choice between two 45's that are about the same price: a Tanfoglio Witness 1911; or a SIG P220 DA/SA with decocker and no manual safety. both include enough spare mags for an action match.

pros and cons include:
— the 1911 will operate just like the other Tanfoglio i have, and is a classic design (though a clone);
— the SIG will require some additional training with the first-shot-double-action-only (or draw-thumb-cock-and-aim — though i need to find out if that's permitted);
— there aren't many reviews out there about the Tanfoglio 1911 so there's only the reputation of the maker and the original Browning design to infer from;
— the SIG has great reviews online.

any thoughts from the forum?

I have a Tanfoglio Witness 1911 that I recently bought second hand with <500 rounds for a mind-boogling stupid low price with 6 mags, a holster and 500 loaded rounds

It's a made in italy, rather than made in the phillipines version.

The Good.
It's a 45
It goes bang every time

The Bad
The laser engraving on the side is on the piss something chronic.
The same person that did the engraving also machined the front sight, cos it's also completely on the piss, not even close to be squared or centered on the slide. So much so in fact that I'm about to get it machined off and a novak cut instead, as the rear sight drifted out of it's dovetail is beginning to annoy me.

My advice, if it's not brand new get it checked over by a competent 1911 smith, but the good news it's a 1911 and parts are everywhere (although they'll most like require fitting)

Good luck

Just buy a CZ and have no problems! :)



Or the 1911 as a second place.....


And don't buy the sig.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bluemonsta

…

The Good.
It's a 45
It goes bang every time

The Bad
The laser engraving on the side is on the piss something chronic.
The same person that did the engraving also machined the front sight, cos it's also completely on the piss, not even close to be squared or centered on the slide. So much so in fact that I'm about to get it machined off and a novak cut instead, as the rear sight drifted out of it's dovetail is beginning to annoy me.

…

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cheers for that bluemonsta.

my 9mm Tanfoglio Combat is a bit of a fragile creature and choosy with the ammo — i broke the extractor on its second range visit with some Tula steel cased ammo, then had a squib on the very last round of factory ammo during another range visit — but it's grown on me.

i've read on overseas forums that Tanfoglio QC can be a bit random, and the last thing i want is a pistol that's going to want/need work straight after i get it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beaker

Just buy a CZ and have no problems! :)

Or the 1911 as a second place.....

And don't buy the sig.

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that didn't take long: a bloody CZ owner crowing and all :D

(i was tempted once upon a time by a CZ 97B.)

why not the SIG?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petronious_arbiter

that didn't take long: a bloody CZ owner crowing and all :D

(i was tempted once upon a time by a CZ 97B.)

why not the SIG?

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Big thing was fit.
Sig just didn't fit me. However, they may fit you.

Most modern pistols are all reliable etc.... speed and comfort are something different. Glock, para, sig - all not so good experience. CZ never a issue (1 round that I forgot to put powder in) and comfort all the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beaker

Big thing was fit.
Sig just didn't fit me. However, they may fit you.

[SNIP] Glock, para, sig - all not so good experience. CZ never a issue (1 round that I forgot to put powder in) and comfort all the way.

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thanks for that beaker.

i know i should at least handle them, preferably shoot each one to get a real feel for comfort and fit. i'm still ignorant enough about pistol shooting — a trigger pull is a trigger pull is a trigger pull, though i'm sure i'll recognise the nuances eventually — that, based on handling similar or equivalent 1911s and SIGs, i'd be okay with either. and i've just seen that SIG make 22LR conversion kits for the P220.

The M1911 is a much better gun than the SIG but your reasoning for a .45 is way off. First, the SIG is not a good pistol for a couple of reasons: The design means the gun is very high in the hand and is consequently harder to control, and they have a problem with parts breakage. Buying a .45 just to see the bullet holes means that your technique is completely arse about face. It means that your eye is drawn to the target instead of concentrating on the front sight, and that will cause wildly inaccurate shooting. While the M1911 is a good gun it does not mean that it is the best gun for you. I would suggest a 9mm in preference to the .45 as it is easier to shoot and much cheaper to feed. Far and away the best choice in 9mm's is the CZ75 or 85 pistol. They are very well made of robust material (all steel, no aluminium or plastic!), accurate, capable of customising, ergonomically very good, and reasonably priced. In comparison, the M1911 is a harder gun to shoot accurately without a lot of experience, and the SIG is not in the hunt. A tweaked CZ is capable of 75mm groups at 50 metres in the right hands, and will last you all your shooting career.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

The M1911 is a much better gun than the SIG but your reasoning for a .45 is way off. First, the SIG is not a good pistol for a couple of reasons: The design means the gun is very high in the hand and is consequently harder to control, and they have a problem with parts breakage. [SNIP] While the M1911 is a good gun it does not mean that it is the best gun for you. I would suggest a 9mm in preference to the .45 as it is easier to shoot and much cheaper to feed. [SNIP] … the M1911 is a harder gun to shoot accurately without a lot of experience, and the SIG is not in the hunt.

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thanks for your thoughts, gundoc.

i may have been a little casual in the whys and wherefores of my search for a 45 :)

if IPSC taught me how to move and shoot confidently and safely, action has taught me accuracy and consistency with its front-sight-front-sight-front-sight mantra, and all the while, skills from each discipline have really improved my performance in both of them. i currently shoot a 9mm so… i guess the real reason for wanting a 45 is just because :) (and because i've got the two on offer in my price range.)

so far:
— 2 x against the SIG;
— 2 x for the 1911, with caveats;
— and 2 x for CZs when i'm not even asking after them :thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gundoc

The M1911 is a much better gun than the SIG but your reasoning for a .45 is way off. First, the SIG is not a good pistol for a couple of reasons: The design means the gun is very high in the hand and is consequently harder to control, and they have a problem with parts breakage. Buying a .45 just to see the bullet holes means that your technique is completely arse about face. It means that your eye is drawn to the target instead of concentrating on the front sight, and that will cause wildly inaccurate shooting. While the M1911 is a good gun it does not mean that it is the best gun for you. I would suggest a 9mm in preference to the .45 as it is easier to shoot and much cheaper to feed. Far and away the best choice in 9mm's is the CZ75 or 85 pistol. They are very well made of robust material (all steel, no aluminium or plastic!), accurate, capable of customising, ergonomically very good, and reasonably priced. In comparison, the M1911 is a harder gun to shoot accurately without a lot of experience, and the SIG is not in the hunt. A tweaked CZ is capable of 75mm groups at 50 metres in the right hands, and will last you all your shooting career.

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he has a couple of 9mms , I thought that was also one of the reasons why he wanted a 45 .... hell even I want one just because ....

If I was after a .45 just because I wanted a .45 ( and that's a damn good reason) I personally would go with a 1911 as its the classic.45 pistol

Just wanting a .45 is good enough! I use a 1991 .45 M1911 Colt myself but my serious IPSC is done with my old 10mm S&W 1006 that I have been shooting since 1990. I got my first M1911 in 1965 (30 Pounds with a US holster and a pillow case full of ammo) and owned and used many of them over the years (including serious carry). I have a high opinion of them! Some of the M1911 clones are not as good as the original Colts but are still OK. Tanfoglio make fairly good pistols and the Witness should be perfectly acceptable for your needs.

Go for the one that will take the least amount of retraining from your method of shooting..... everything else about them being equal

@stumpy: cheers for that.
@res: yeah, nothing beats the silhouette of a classic.
@gundoc: thanks for the 1911 plug. i see your earlier point about the expense of ammo but… it's a 45!
@johnd: an excellent point about retraining. a longtimer at my club pointed out that the more pistols i want to shoot even semi-regularly, the less likely i'll be thoroughly familiar with them, leading to an increased likelihood of doing the wrong thing when trying to clear a malfunction and forgetting which pistol i'm using.

so far:
— 2 x against the SIG;
— 4 x for the 1911, with caveats;
— 2 x unsolicited for a CZ; and
— 1 x call for common sense.

belated disclosure: when i asked the action guys about buying a Tanfoglio for action shooting, to a man they rubbished the pistol and its maker, but being an ornery fella, i went ahead and bought it anyway and then i found out afterwards a third of them used the high-end Tanfoglios for competition. lesson learned: it's a free goddamned world :D

im for the sig!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by stumpy

im for the sig!!!!!!

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now is that vote for the SIG because you're a fan, or because you're a champion of the underdog? :)

I rate 9mm sigs. Carried one for years and shot a few of their models well.
But not so sure about one in .45
1911 was built around the .45
Great cartridge and gun.

I am a fan of the modern high capacity guns for IPSC/Action.
.40 S&W or 10mm is still a lot of cartridge that leaves big holes😆

10mm the gruntier of the 2 is not that available in an ipsc version. But a nice 10mm gun shooting rounds loaded to power factor would last you a long time I reckon.

This is gun porn to me😆
So much so, I am going to buy another one.




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I'd recommend the 1911-

1) It's a classic
2) More aftermarket grips and customising options



I love mine and would not part with it

As for the Sig - a mate has one and he finds it hard to be accurate with it - YMMV

@R93 yous be lucky to get another, I hear the waiting list is about 20 pistols to be built and gbc having trouble getting frames out of the usa. I guess that's the supply/demand/price triangle

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Originally Posted by specweapon

@R93 yous be lucky to get another, I hear the waiting list is about 20 pistols to be built and gbc having trouble getting frames out of the usa. I guess that's the supply/demand/price triangle

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I am not in a hurry due to the price.
Gunna have to hide the next one from the cook😆

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by petronious_arbiter

now is that vote for the SIG because you're a fan, or because you're a champion of the underdog? :)

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I love my p226 9mm ....... so I gots to love the sig !!!

I havn't read all the posts yet - but if your shooting it in Action as a metallic gun then has to be the 1911, I would assume it will be much more accurate and the sig double action will kill your scores. I have a Kimber 1911 in 9mm for Action metallic div - another good option!! But I get the 45 bug - I don't know anyone shooting a 45 in Action either

@R93: that's not a pistol — that's a raygun :) the 1911's history speaks for itself, alright.
@308: i agree the 1911 is a classic, and if i were to get it, i'd have no intention of customising it.
@stumpy: ah-HA — thank you for your vote!
@Vapour: good points — 've just waded through the NRA rules and the SIG falls into production which means first-shot double-action-only which would very frustrating (and expensive) at the 50-yard line for a recent shooter like myself.

so far:
— 2 x against the SIG;
— 1.5 x for the SIG (i'm splitting @R93's between the SIG and the 1911);
— 6.5 x for the 1911, a couple with caveats;
— 2 x unsolicited for a CZ; and
— 1 x call for common sense;
— 1 x call for the application of cold logic.

the ornery part of me says bugger to the 1911 bloc but the calls for common sense and logic are beginning to nag at me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by R93

I rate 9mm sigs. Carried one for years and shot a few of their models well.
But not so sure about one in .45
1911 was built around the .45
Great cartridge and gun.

I am a fan of the modern high capacity guns for IPSC/Action.
.40 S&W or 10mm is still a lot of cartridge that leaves big holes😆

10mm the gruntier of the 2 is not that available in an ipsc version. But a nice 10mm gun shooting rounds loaded to power factor would last you a long time I reckon.

This is gun porn to me😆
So much so, I am going to buy another one.




http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...edbd25b7d0.jpg

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

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Open?

F.U.B.A.R

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nzfubz

Open?

F.U.B.A.R

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No. Another standard one. Thrash the one I have and get a new one later on, for comps only.

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I also have a .40s&w dbl stack para, and its a accurate f'ing thing and feels good in the hand(fat grips, good/great to shoot, shit to change mags in a hurry - small hand/cock issue.), the cz sp-01 shadow, just "fits me", all around. i shoot it quick and accurate over all.
The .40 is fun to shoot though:)

I just like small holes though... :)


So thats a 1911/2011 40/45, if you want shits and giggles

Or a if you want to win vote, go cz 9mm

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petronious_arbiter

@R93: that's not a pistol — that's a raygun :) the 1911's history speaks for itself, alright.
@308: i agree the 1911 is a classic, and if i were to get it, i'd have no intention of customising it.
@stumpy: ah-HA — thank you for your vote!
@Vapour: good points — 've just waded through the NRA rules and the SIG falls into production which means first-shot double-action-only which would very frustrating (and expensive) at the 50-yard line for a recent shooter like myself.

so far:
— 2 x against the SIG;
— 1.5 x for the SIG (i'm splitting @R93's between the SIG and the 1911);
— 6.5 x for the 1911, a couple with caveats;
— 2 x unsolicited for a CZ; and
— 1 x call for common sense;
— 1 x call for the application of cold logic.

the ornery part of me says bugger to the 1911 bloc but the calls for common sense and logic are beginning to nag at me.

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thank you to the forum hivemind: i'm going for the 1911.

chur

According to my experience, 1911 is a better choice between 1911 and P220. Since it is a classic gun and has better after-market grip, you should say YES to 1911.

@gunnerjacky @Beaker @R93 @nzfubz @Vapour @stumpy @308 @specweapon @bluemonsta @gundoc @res @johnd — thank you all for your kind words and advice last year. below is a little something for your entertainment and smh-ing.

MY FIRST .45

Warning: not all of the following is necessarily true or actually happened.

When I joined the Auckland Pistol Club a few years back, it seemed like everyone was running a Glock or a CZ. The club guns were Glocks and CZs. Everyone told me that the perfect first pistol was either a Glock (for the ease-of-use and reliability) or a CZ (for the accuracy and reliability). And as I progressed through my training and probation, I knew one thing: my first pistol was not going to be a Glock or a CZ.

I bought a Springfield Armory XD having neither handled nor shot one, and Sheila and I — yes, I named her — would throw jacketed lead downrange whenever my and the club armourer’s schedules coincided (my B endorsement was still pending). The XD worked — and still works — perfectly, eating whatever factory and reloaded ammo it’s fed without complaint, and is a wonderful and fun pistol for IPSC matches. Then I got a Tanfoglio P19 for NRA matches and I broke it on each of my first two range visits with it (but that’s another story).

Fastfoward to last year and, with two 9mm’s (figuratively) on my belt, I got a hankering for a .45. That’s not exactly true — the stars aligned and available for sale were: a barely used SIG-Sauer P220 at an awesomely reasonable price; and a brand spanking Tanfoglio 1911 at a very competitive price. Both pistols were all steel, and each came with enough eight-round mags to complete a typical IPSC match (if I remained calm enough to be both accurate and frugal). I had quite the conundrum.

Google helped a little. The SIG-Sauer had countless positive reviews while reviews of the actual Tanfoglio 1911 were a little thin (and usually not in English). I asked an online forum and once I sorted out the Glock and CZ fans — seriously, you can’t take two steps without tripping over one — I had a list of pro’s and con’s. It was German precision versus an all-American classic. Teutonic reliability versus a century-old-plus design. One bright spark pointed out that if I wanted to claim any kind of proficiency with any firearm, I should sleep with it as well. No, wait: that would threaten my B endorsement, not to mention sleeping arrangements with my Lovely Wife. What they actually said was, proficiency comes from practice, visualisation, practice, muscle memory, and more practice.

The Tanfoglio 1911’s controls are similar to those on my P19: magazine release, slide release, and safety catch. Similar and familiar controls are good between pistols. The P220, however, has no safety catch — it has a decocking lever which means that, having racked the slide and chambered a round, the decocker has to lower the hammer, so the first shot has to be double-action. Since I enjoy shooting cocked-and-locked, controlling that first double-action shot was going to require a lot of practice — and .45 ACP ammo isn’t cheap.

I umm-ed and ahh-ed. The clock was ticking on the SIG-Sauer and the Tanfoglio.

Then I saw an awesome online special and bought a Grand Power P45 without having handled or shot one — but look: a rotating barrel! ambidextrous controls! ten rounds per mag!

And when the P45 arrived in the mail and I held it in my hands… it was hate at first sight.

The Grand Power looks like an air pistol. I own a Glock 21 and an original WWII-era Colt 1911A1. The Glock is accurate and the sights a good, whereas the Colt is mostly for fun ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mcdeee

The Grand Power looks like an air pistol. I own a Glock 21 and an original WWII-era Colt 1911A1. The Glock is accurate and the sights a good, whereas the Colt is mostly for fun ;)

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the P45 has grown on me. it's certainly made me appreciate a good out-of-the-box trigger.

until i start reloading .45, the main feeling i get from shooting the Grand Power is how quickly it lightens my wallet.

I wonder if the 45 Grand power fucks brass as much as the 9mm version

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Originally Posted by specweapon

I wonder if the 45 Grand power fucks brass as much as the 9mm version

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i certainly hope not — i've collected a good amount of brass as i work towards reloading for it.

What about a les Baer ?

Latest model sig competition series X5 and X6 are modular in you can upspeck the various models from production right through to open divisions ipsc or action. They certainly look the shiz, at a typical pay what you get price, that's if you can even get hold of one. There are aftermarket trigger kits to get best out of them but also hard to get out of the state's.
Living in NZ for a competition pistol you really need to go with something with parts availability or at minimum buy two of same pistol, which is 1911 frame really, STI, Les Baer above are good competition pistols.

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Originally Posted by Friwi

What about a les Baer ?

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i like the idea of 'competing' with a stock pistol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackson21

Latest model sig competition series X5 and X6 are modular in you can upspeck the various models from production right through to open divisions ipsc or action. They certainly look the shiz, at a typical pay what you get price, that's if you can even get hold of one. There are aftermarket trigger kits to get best out of them but also hard to get out of the state's.
Living in NZ for a competition pistol you really need to go with something with parts availability or at minimum buy two of same pistol, which is 1911 frame really, STI, Les Baer above are good competition pistols.

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i was keen on an SA-only model of the P220 until i saw the price.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petronious_arbiter

i was keen on an SA-only model of the P220 until i saw the price.

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Yes, then you end up back the full circle of glocks, xdms, M &P' s, CZ's, 1911's, Tangfolio now.
I was really keen on an X5, put it in the too hard and too expensive basket.