Stumbled across this thread, might be of use to some of you
Smoothing the Action
This one is also good (although is for the SP 01 not the SP 01 Shadow)
http://forums.brianenos.com/index.ph...ofessor-atlas/
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Stumbled across this thread, might be of use to some of you
Smoothing the Action
This one is also good (although is for the SP 01 not the SP 01 Shadow)
http://forums.brianenos.com/index.ph...ofessor-atlas/
A fast way to find yourself bumped from production division to open if you're using it in IPSC like most shadow shooters in NZ.
Stuff production. You paint a bit of your gun a different colour and your out😆
Some really dumb rules those Canadians come up with.
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How is it going to bump you from production? I did a bit of a polish up last night and dropped a pound or so off the SA pull.
From the production class rules
16.1 Modifications to them, other than minor detailing (the removal of burrs and/or adjustments unavoidably required in order to fit replacement OFM parts or components), are prohibited. Other prohibited modifications include those which facilitate faster reloading (e.g. flared, enlarged and/or add-on magwells, etc.), changing the original color and/or finish of a handgun, and/or adding stripes, stippling or other embellishments.
Polishing the trigger bar is removing burrs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stug
Read the IPSC rulebook. Specifically Appendix D6 16.1
Don't worry. Don at Gun Supplies up in Rotorua will have the replacement parts you need to put it back to production legal.
Sounds perfectly legal to me. In fact Chris gee did this kind of work to my shadow as an extra service when I bought it from him. Its within the production rules. I think theres a minimum trigger pull weight? I might be wrong about that though.
So you are claiming your polishing the trigger bar was unavoidably required to fit a replacement OFM part or component?Quote:
Originally Posted by stug
Your gun is not production legal any more.
If you don't believe me (or can't understand the rule book), read this from the IPSC discussion forums:
http://ipsc.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=17269
So the minor detailing he's done to his original ofm parts which I assume are still fitted to the gun is illegal? Good luck with that. Stugs right, at worst he can argue he's removed the burrs which falls well within the rules.
All in all, a really good reason to shoot Open!
That's why standard is good, it's perfectly legal to add racing stripes to your gun to make it go faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
Also good triggers and stuff.
Yup. Shooting standard now and will never look back. Enjoy the smaller fields at shoots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzy
Quicker moving thru stages and not standing around as much.
I also like seeing some shooters shoot heavy calibers as fast and accurate as the mouse gun people.😆
(Although I have to admit I wouldn't mind owning a shadow 2)
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Did you read the topic I linked to in post 7?Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
Obviously not because if you had, you would have read the words straight from the horse's mouth (Vince Pinto, the guy who quite literally writes the rulebook) saying it is not allowed.
What IROA course did you do?
The links dead.
And as long as stug hasn't gone too over board on the polishing then I think the magical word here is "de burring"
Mine got a similar working over by chris gee and the trigger pull between stock standard and mine is night and day. All offered as part of his tuning service within the rules I was assured.
Not that I'm worried, productions gay anyway.
Here's the relevant part of the post in the link:Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
"You're entitled to replace parts, and to do minor detailing unavoidably necessary in order to fit them, but wholesale grinding, polishing and so on is taking matters way too far."
Vince Pinto
IPSC Handgun Rules Director
02 February 2014
If you ever shoot production at a Level III or IV match, don't forget to mention at equipment check that Chris gave your trigger a polishing. See where that gets you with the CRO and match director.
You could also do an IROA course so you have a better knowledge of the actual rules than "I think".
I still read it as the removal of burrs is fine and/or anything unavoidable to make the part fit is fine. So do you take the written rule 16.1 as the guide line for a match or vince's interpretation of the written rule as the guide line?
So what's classed as de burring? Because you can still do that even if parts fit it would seem.
I will say again f@$k production and it's anal rules.
I am sure if you gave a trigger mech to a decent gunsmith and he just removed the high and low points of a part in order to debur and fit, he wouldn't last long in the game.
A competent and proper trigger job requires polishing.
If the trigger is within the DA/SA break weights and is safe, who the fuck cares. No one will ever detail strip your gun at a shoot.
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Before the nationals someone I know tried Sebo's shadow 2. By the sounds of it, it was not like my factory shadow 2 on the double action.
It may be that he had only changed the springs which I have yet to do but I have a feeling that at the top, they are not using a gun without a bit of polishing.
What do you think of the 2? Is it a definite upgrade on the SP-01 in regards to things like handling and trigger etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaW
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I didn't come from an sp-01 so I can't compare.
I like the feel, it feels much like a tanfoglio stock 3 in the hand. While I liked how it felt, I wasn't shooting well getting used to it. I was putting in a miss per stage. Even so, it did feel good and I knew my issue was with the single action trigger being different than what I was used to (x-calibur).
A bit of practise and I think I have nailed that part down and overall I am very happy with it.
So you don't care that people cheat by doing trigger jobs or other polishing specifically prohibited by the rules?Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
If the trigger breaks within division weight limits then.....No.Quote:
Originally Posted by systolic
Production has some pretty dumb rules regarding guns Imo.
Prohibiting cosmetic things that have absolutely no effect on he performance of said gun for example.
After all if they were that determined to call a gun production you should by rights not be able to do anything to it.
You should shoot it as it comes out of the box.
No special hammers. No lightened Springs. No slim grips etc etc.
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Why don't you ask Wally to submit a remit to IPSC to change the rules then?Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
Apparently there is a move to change some strange rules and that is according to Wally.Quote:
Originally Posted by systolic
I shoot standard division ( relatively poorly) But I am happy as a pig in shit😆
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I was squadded with Robin and had a play with his Shadow 2. I didn't find the trigger to be a lot different from my Shadow, but then again I'm not especially good at telling the difference. It was noticeably heavier to pick up, but I didn't notice the difference when shooting it. The feel was like the love child of my Shadow and my Tanfoglio Limited Custom, slightly higher grip etc. To me it probably isn't worth the up grade, but I've been shooting the same whorey SP01 for the last eight years whereas some of the other guys I know get a new pistol every eighteen months or do the SP01 -->SP01 Orange-->Tanfoglio Stock 2 shuffle -->(maybe Shadow2 then Shadow 2 Orange ) I'm not competitive enough to care that much.If I was starting out I'd probably pony up and spend the extra coin on the Shadow 2. The adjustable sights are useful especially if you compete abroad and use match ammunition that may shoot differently to yours. Because of the thicker/wider frame of the Shadow 2 (partially where it gets the extra weight) some Shadow parts aren't interchangeable. We tried putting a slide stop in and although it fitted it didn't function properly. My bladetech clam-shell holster didn't accept the Shadow 2, currently there aren't that many holster in NZ for them and as per normally cheaper to import. There are definite trend too, with Guns NZ now being the Tanfoglio agents and actually promoting them there has been a large increase in Tanfoglio shooters. Still limited support and spare parts for them though.Quote:
Originally Posted by R93
I think it unlikely that there will be any changes to production division as it is pretty much seen as working. Though on a side note at 2017 meeting they are looking at a proposal to trial an new division as of 2018 Production Optics. Poor mans Open division for those of us with failing eye sight.
[QUOTE=R93;559883]But I am a pig in shit😆
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Sums it up!
Rules are rules, and pushing/interpreting them is the realm of champions.
Informative as always mate. Thanks.
I will see if I can get a look at one at the RCO in a few weeks.
Saving for a backup to my Chaos now anyway. I have been informed by Don that it will be pricey.😆
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Sssshhh systolic, say no more! If people realise that simply polishing up a trigger has the ability to turn any mere shooter into an instant grand master bad ass over night then it will bring our grading system into disrepute!Quote:
Originally Posted by systolic
Fuck practise! I got a file and I'm deburring shit!
Then you are a cheat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Towely
Hope your compiling a list of all the cheaters so you can tell on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by systolic
I have never done anything to my triggers but I will change my spring on the shadow2.
I like production as I like the cost of it. Production cheap. Still, it can be seen as a bit of a money race but on a smaller scale than open.
I mean, the shadow can have a heavy trigger but you cant polish the bits to get it better and within legal but you can spend twice as much to get a production gun that has a full trigger job on it.
There are cases where I think the intent of the rules have not kept up. If I want that legal trigger job, no problem. Pay $1k+ more
To me production is good because I can't mess with stuff. I'm just a trigger puller and about as inept with anything engineering related as you can get; couple of years back before the prepackaged standard guns etc there was a lot of jiggery pokery going on to optimize shit. People milling down sights and hammers to get their standard pistols in the box with an extra round or so or to have a 5.4" slide rather than a 5". Its funny looking at the facebook Tanfoglio sites with pristine pistols and if you look at the top NZ guys all their pistols have bits of tape slapped on and filing marks from a bit of DIY gun smithing.
That's another good thing about Standard, any time I get a new part I get to play with a dremel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufasa
Also what's the difference between taking the rough edges off parts and just dry firing the living piss out of the gun? Parts will wear so you'll end up with the same result, one way is just faster.
IMHO the principle behind Production has been undermined by these mass produced custom pistols like the Tanfog,Shadow2,Grandpowers with the end result, mainly in our small country, being that new competitors lose interest because they can't match the pace without opening the chequebooks or years of practice/losing. You just can't pickup a $700 glock and be competitive anymore.
To me Production should be more like the Toyota GT racing series where everyone races the same car, instead it's more like Formula 1.
But that's just my 2c, in sticking to my principles I shoot an "as it came", stock, untweaked, uncerakoted, un-spring lightened, non-thin alloy gripped SP01 Shadow and an un-fucked with Open Czechmate. And I still managed to win our Club Trophy for top shooter.
I put that all down to being coached by a local Grandmaster, good practice at home and that I approach matches with a totally different mindset to many people, shit i don't even shoot many rounds in a year
Losing interest?Quote:
Originally Posted by specweapon
Is that whey there were more production shooters at the 2016 IPSC Nationals than any other division?
And at the 2015 and 2014 Nationals?
Yes losing interest and changing sections, swapping to multigun/3 gun or just straight up giving upQuote:
Originally Posted by systolic
Production will always have more shooters because its the entry point for the sport
I think production is 99% about skill/practise, and that's why I like it. Equipment is only a small part and you can't pay your way to GM.
Too right. Doesn't stop people trying though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana
Especially relevant coming from someone who generally slays with a glock and homemade holster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banana