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Thread: The Waitangi Treaty, Taonga, and Gun Confiscations.

  1. #1
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    The Waitangi Treaty, Taonga, and Gun Confiscations.

    From a respected legal source, Stephen Franks, on firearms confiscation -- both from Maori and Pakeha perspectives of The Treaty.


    NZ’s right to bear arms? Firearms as a Treaty taonga. April 4th, 2019

    When the Treaty was signed, pu and tupara (muskets and double barreled shotguns) were among the most valuable of all taonga under Article 2 (if it really does go beyond the real property interests listed as the New Zealand courts say). Article 2 assured the chiefs and all the ordinary people of New Zealand that they would have undisturbed exclusive use and possession of their taonga.

    So if relations between Police and (rural) Maori break down, it is inevitable that some Maori will assert a Treaty right to be free from confiscation and possibly even licensing for firearms. Urban judges from leafy suburbs will look for some sophistry to reject that claim both in law, and morally. But they should not underestimate the power of a strong view that authority is wrong allied to a wide belief in historical right. We have seen that repeatedly. Myth becomes political reality when enough people believe the myth.

    The Arms Act 1860 exempted Maori. I have not researched the history, but I suspect that reflected both practical common sense on enforcement, and recognition of a Treaty assurance of Maori rights to retain pu and tupara. Under the so-called right of development in Treaty jurisprudence, that would now extend to whatever is the modern equivalents (in relative effectiveness to other weapons?)

    I raised this possibility in my last minute submission to the Select Committee. I imagine there will have been many, judging from the latency on the Parliamentary website template for submissions.

    Irrespective of the strength of the possible treaty argument, a heavy handed law change that rural people see as unreasonable could have a high price.

    I have been a hunter for 50 years. I have a large rural property. I know hundreds of fire-arms users. I was unconcerned by a move against genuine MSSAs and large capacity magazines. But the Bill goes much further.

    Parliament will be largely unaware of the level of informal borrowing and use of firearms in rural communities, particularly among Maori, that occurs with indifference to current law let alone what is in the Bill.

    I can attest from personal knowledge to the degree of non-compliance with law on registration of vehicles, and driver licencing. There is similar non-compliance with gun owner licence requirements.

    I believe that the Police wisely avoid interfering where they feel there is likely to be no harm done. And with positive relationships, unless forced to act, they get cooperation and information from families that would be at risk if there was vigorous inspection or enforcement.

    But Police will have little alternative but to enforce the new law, though thousands of gun owners could decide to ignore it, or worse, to hide their guns, or to offer them to relatives or others who will be willing to ignore the law change. Those firearms will become invisible, whereas at present, the Police can expect reasonable frankness about them.

    A general problem when censorious children are elected to govern

    I see this issue as yet another where the urban ‘woke’ have utterly tin ears.

    New Zealand has avoided many irreconcilable political fights over competing values. Now an ignorant generation are looking for ways to anger their opponents by deliberately kicking sleeping dogs. Wise politicians pick no unnecessary fights that focus people on differences instead of on values they share.

    Gun law has not been a tribal political issue here. My Select Committee 17 years ago reached a cross party consensus. But it is a badging issue in the US. So our “progressives” start the same chants to ape their US betters. They want to stick it to gun owners to show who is in charge – to anger “deplorables”. Whether the changes have any connection to a problem or a solution is immaterial to them. It is not so much ‘virtue signalling’ as IFF – identifying friend from foe.

    From the same impulse they are trashing our 50 year old tacit deal on abortion (‘we’ll pretend we have a law against abortion and leave the issue alone, if you too pretend the same”).

    They look for any issue they can to stick the coercive state’s fat finger up the nose of Christians – while excusing the ghastliness of Islamism, again to ape their US models.

    They ended charter schools out of similar vindictiveness, thereby ensuring that whatever Hipkins does now in education will be reversed when he loses power.

    And on free speech and so called non-binary gender and many other ‘me too’ (in its original sense) progressive causes their language, their solutions and their reasons are entirely derivative.

    A consolation is that they are cementing their distance from the ordinary working people they have long scorned but claimed as the objects of their sanctimonious “altruism”.


    Stephen Franks is a principal of specialist Wellington law firm Franks Ogilvie (Commercial & Public Law) and a former Member of the New Zealand Parliament
    Barefoot, gadgetman, R93 and 17 others like this.
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  2. #2
    Member scotty's Avatar
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    ahhhhhhh i bet we dont see this on stuffed on newshub
    i guess hes allowed to make sense hes not seeking re-election

  3. #3
    OPCz Rushy's Avatar
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    Ka karanga ahau ki oku tupuna o Ngai Tahu ki te tiaki i taku tika ki te tango me te pupuri i nga taonga.

    I call upon my Ngai Tahu ancestors to help preserve my right to own and possess rifles.
    40mm and Tussock like this.
    It takes 43 muscle's to frown and 17 to smile, but only 3 for proper trigger pull.
    What more do we need? If we are above ground and breathing the rest is up to us!
    Rule 1: Treat every firearm as loaded
    Rule 2: Always point firearms in a safe direction
    Rule 3: Load a firearm only when ready to fire
    Rule 4: Identify your target beyond all doubt
    Rule 5: Check your firing zone
    Rule 6: Store firearms and ammunition safely
    Rule 7: Avoid alcohol and drugs when handling firearms

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    Don't ya'll dare culturally appropriate the white man's guns'n'stuff hey

    Because reasons like this

    https://www.maoritelevision.com/news...opriation-stop

    https://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-a8367486.html

    etc

    etc

    etc

    Sauce, goose, gander, some assembly required.

  5. #5
    Terminator Products Kiwi Greg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cordite View Post
    From a respected legal source, Stephen Franks, on firearms confiscation -- both from Maori and Pakeha perspectives of The Treaty.


    I have been a hunter for 50 years. I have a large rural property. I know hundreds of fire-arms users. I was unconcerned by a move against genuine MSSAs and large capacity magazines. But the Bill goes much further.
    And right there is the one of the problems,

    All these people, "They don't need semis, I'm OK I don't have one" Nek Minit their shot gun & 22 LR are illegal due to a magazine capacity restriction....

    This is just the beginning

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiwi Greg View Post
    And right there is the one of the problems,

    All these people, "They don't need semis, I'm OK I don't have one" Nek Minit their shot gun & 22 LR are illegal due to a magazine capacity restriction....

    This is just the beginning
    Fuck em. They deserve everything they get. They were even warned that exactly this would happen and still decided to sacrifice everyone else because they thought they were safe.

    In the words of Nelson muntz haha!
    Steve123 and outlander like this.

  7. #7
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    The Treaty applies to ALL New Zealanders. With respect to to firearms and natural resouces and my taonga I have the same rights under the treaty.
    Luke556, Cordite and outlander like this.

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    If that is correct, how would a new zealander of european descent get on claiming the right to keep firearms under the article 2 of the treaty. Would i be told piss off it only applies to maori or would i get a hearing
    outlander likes this.

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    I do not know. Need a pro bono constitutuinak lawyer I guess, to help us.

  10. #10
    Member Micky Duck's Avatar
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    not so many years back a very tattooed individual whos name translates to "little boy" used a double barreled shotgun IN A PUBLIC PLACE to shoot the New Zealand flag...and pretty much got off scott free
    now tell me the above has no relevance...
    tetawa and Steve123 like this.

  11. #11
    Member Steve123's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky Duck View Post
    not so many years back a very tattooed individual whos name translates to "little boy" used a double barreled shotgun IN A PUBLIC PLACE to shoot the New Zealand flag...and pretty much got off scott free
    now tell me the above has no relevance...
    Same guy also got fucked over for playing army men with a bunch of mates in the bush his iwi owns.
    Problem was Plod raided the entire town. Shows what the fuckers are capable of.
    Done under the watch of uncle Helen too if I'm not mistaken.

    Sent from my SM-G390Y using Tapatalk

  12. #12
    Member Max Headroom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micky Duck View Post
    not so many years back a very tattooed individual whos name translates to "little boy" used a double barreled shotgun IN A PUBLIC PLACE to shoot the New Zealand flag...and pretty much got off scott free
    now tell me the above has no relevance...
    I think it was the Aussie flag. He didn't check too hard. I was all right with it, actually.
    Cordite likes this.
    RIP Larry S. 19/02/19

  13. #13
    Member scotty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin358 View Post
    If that is correct, how would a new zealander of european descent get on claiming the right to keep firearms under the article 2 of the treaty. Would i be told piss off it only applies to maori or would i get a hearing
    it would be racial discrimination to exclude you because you are not of maori decent, and therefore a breech of the bill of rights......
    (because i am a expert on such matters).......nah just my opinion really
    tetawa, Martin358 and outlander like this.

  14. #14
    Member Cordite's Avatar
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    Maybe our legal eagles like @Sidney or @Ultimitsu can chip in. I mean, any state can change its laws, can it not? But can parliament annul parts of the treaty of waitangi, or does the treaty have an untouchable constitution status?

    It would certainly have been much easier to just cancel the treaty rather than go through all those settlements with iwi, so is it a case of cannot or will not?
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  15. #15
    Member Micky Duck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
    I think it was the Aussie flag. He didn't check too hard. I was all right with it, actually.
    after a couple of loads of birdshot at close range you possibly couldnt tell how many stars were on it to begin with....
    you go out into local sports field or even your back yard and fire a couple of shots and see what happens..... NO seriously dont do that.

 

 

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