7mm-08 reloads extraction issue - thoughts please

Well I spoke too soon. After another couple of excursions and more range time we still get sporadic occurrences. Dealer says it's a brass re-sizing issue. But I don't accept that a round that chambers freely has a resizing issue. And once fired it is fire formed to the chamber. To me it's simply an extraction issue that appears at a particular pressure threshold. So back to reducing the load further. Maybe even a different powder with a different pressure curve.

Somehow I doubt Ruger, or their local importer, is going to care too much.

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Well I spoke too soon. After another couple of excursions and more range time we still get sporadic occurrences. Dealer says it's a brass re-sizing issue. But I don't accept that a round that chambers freely has a resizing issue. And once fired it is fire formed to the chamber. To me it's simply an extraction issue that appears at a particular pressure threshold. So back to reducing the load further. Maybe even a different powder with a different pressure curve.

Somehow I doubt Ruger, or their local importer, is going to care too much.

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Have you tried checking the headspace via the masking tape method I described?

Reason I said to take the firing pin out, I said use a factory round (live) as they are usually very under-sized. A single layer of masking tape is close enough to approximate a No-Go gauge (some gunsmiths use this method to check headspace to avoid ordering gauges).

Aside from a chamber cast, this is the easiest way to tell, otherwise you will be going in circles.

Well actually I took @vietnamcam advice above and spent a bit of time online.

This (poor quality) YouTube video from frame 14.18 and frame 16.07 specifically shows the exact repeat extraction issue identical to the rifle in question. The guy is shooting a brand new American in 308 with factory ammo.

The comments below the video confirm this is a regular issue with the Ruger American and likely caused by the bolt design and QA thereof.

Back to the importer I guess. If they won't come to the party the next step which seems to be favored by some is to polish the crap out of the bolt mechanism and grease lube it. I.e address the poor factory quality control re parts finishing.

Anyway.

https://youtu.be/m6JejNtKjJY?si=8EZAksuLr6SMm9op

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Originally Posted by caberslash

Have you tried checking the headspace via the masking tape method I described?

Reason I said to take the firing pin out, I said use a factory round (live) as they are usually very under-sized. A single layer of masking tape is close enough to approximate a No-Go gauge (some gunsmiths use this method to check headspace to avoid ordering gauges).

Aside from a chamber cast, this is the easiest way to tell, otherwise you will be going in circles.

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Will do this if we are left with having to sort it. Polish the bits at the same time. Thks.

Is this a possibility?

https://youtu.be/v28BfzwbsVc?si=j9hLyKJ4dwy7yYfT

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Originally Posted by Oldbloke

Is this a possibility?

https://youtu.be/v28BfzwbsVc?si=j9hLyKJ4dwy7yYfT

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Don't think so. Different issue entirely but thks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Well actually I took @vietnamcam advice above and spent a bit of time online.

This (poor quality) YouTube video from frame 14.18 and frame 16.07 specifically shows the exact repeat extraction issue identical to the rifle in question. The guy is shooting a brand new American in 308 with factory ammo.

The comments below the video confirm this is a regular issue with the Ruger American and likely caused by the bolt design and QA thereof.

Back to the importer I guess. If they won't come to the party the next step which seems to be favored by some is to polish the crap out of the bolt mechanism and grease lube it. I.e address the poor factory quality control re parts finishing.

Anyway.

https://youtu.be/m6JejNtKjJY?si=8EZAksuLr6SMm9op

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IMO.

Back to the importer.

Or

Drop powder further 0.2gr and polished chamber.. But I have a feeling there is more to it.

Yeah if you do the Google thing there is plenty of evidence it's a manufacturing design or QA issue with the bolt. Pretty hard to get that accepted here tho. First port of call is to blame the ammo. So reloads are out. Then you have to shoot off enough factory ammo of different brands to prove the point. Then what... they gunsmith the rifle? Replace the bolt? I guess this is the problem buying budget firearms at the bottom end of the world. Then, I have the Ruger Ranch II in 5.56/223 that cost me $850 back a year or three and is superb value for the spend. Takes your chances I guess...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

Well I spoke too soon. After another couple of excursions and more range time we still get sporadic occurrences. Dealer says it's a brass re-sizing issue. But I don't accept that a round that chambers freely has a resizing issue. And once fired it is fire formed to the chamber. To me it's simply an extraction issue that appears at a particular pressure threshold. So back to reducing the load further. Maybe even a different powder with a different pressure curve.

Somehow I doubt Ruger, or their local importer, is going to care too much.

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Extraction issues can be a result of insufficient resizing, predominantly on the case body, regardless of how a round chambers. As Iv suggested earlier try a small base die. I would run some cases for you but I'm away for the next 6 weeks. Someone here will have an 08 based SB die and could help you out Im sure . It will cost next to nothing to try it and may be an easy solution.

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Extraction issues can be a result of insufficient resizing, predominantly on the case body, regardless of how a round chambers. As Iv suggested earlier try a small base die. I would run some cases for you but I'm away for the next 6 weeks. Someone here will have an 08 based SB die and could help you out Im sure . It will cost next to nothing to try it and may be an easy solution.

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I'm open to what you are suggesting, but if the problem is common to the Ruger American, in different calibres, with factory ammo, how likely is it to be a brass resizing issue? I'd happily buy a small base die for my mate if I was certain that would resolve the issue. What I cant get my head around, thick as I am, is that a round that is incorrectly sized for a given chamber would show that with difficulty chambering. If a round is successfully and normally able to be chambered and fired, the brass THEN conforms to the chamber dimensions and so whatever size it went in as becomes irrelevant. Surely?

From experience with 9mm and 45acp reloading, incorrect resizing of brass causes malfunctions for chambering, not extraction once fired. I have a small base 9mm die I was sold when I bought my Shadow but have never used it as chambering has never been an issue with that particular handgun.

But if there is something diff I should know about a rifle chamber please educate me..seriously.

If.someone wants to risk lending me a small base 7mm-08 die I'd happily pay the postage. Or maybe I should just buy one. It won't solve the problem tho if it turns out factory ammo gives the same results.

Im not saying the problem isnt a primary extraction issue with the rifle, Im guessing it is but you might have an uphill battle getting it resolved. Anyone that has delt with the rem 700 action has probably seen similar, they can work ok to a point but beyond that they can give problems.
With regard to the case resizing, Ill try and explain it as Harvrey Westland did for me. If you havnt heard of Harvey he was a well respected gunsmith and competition shooter from Christchurch,
All chambers and dies are built to a tolerance, so plus or minus a few thou, If you get a chamber on the tight side and a die on the large side then the brass isn't getting the right amount of resizing. Normally this isn't an issue, plenty of reloaders just neck size and it works fine but occasionally the combination does enough to allow the case to chamber but not enough for it release, weak primary extraction will obviously exacerbate the problem as will warmer loads etc. It often gets worse the more times the brass is reloaded Its tough trying to problem solve like this so its a matter of trying things and the way you are describing it leads me to think its worth a try so I'm suggesting this as a possible workaround. I wouldn't buy a SB die until you've tried it and if you have time and want to send some cases down Im happy to run them through a SB die but as i said it wont be for a while.

If factory ammo gives the same results as reloads it's back to the place where the rifle was purchased. In Consumer Act speak it is not fit for purpose.

Make NO mention of using handloads as I'm sure in the weazle print of my Sako 75 (or CZ 527) it says warranty is voided if using handloads. Maybe other manufacturers have the same stance?

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Originally Posted by sneeze

Im not saying the problem isnt a primary extraction issue with the rifle, Im guessing it is but you might have an uphill battle getting it resolved. Anyone that has delt with the rem 700 action has probably seen similar, they can work ok to a point but beyond that they can give problems.
With regard to the case resizing, Ill try and explain it as Harvrey Westland did for me. If you havnt heard of Harvey he was a well respected gunsmith and competition shooter from Christchurch,
All chambers and dies are built to a tolerance, so plus or minus a few thou, If you get a chamber on the tight side and a die on the large side then the brass isn't getting the right amount of resizing. Normally this isn't an issue, plenty of reloaders just neck size and it works fine but occasionally the combination does enough to allow the case to chamber but not enough for it release, weak primary extraction will obviously exacerbate the problem as will warmer loads etc. It often gets worse the more times the brass is reloaded Its tough trying to problem solve like this so its a matter of trying things and the way you are describing it leads me to think its worth a try so I'm suggesting this as a possible workaround. I wouldn't buy a SB die until you've tried it and if you have time and want to send some cases down Im happy to run them through a SB die but as i said it wont be for a while.

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With the Rem M700's it's related to the primary extraction which is related to the location of the bolt handle in relation to the bolt lugs and the primary extraction cam at the back of the rear receiver bridge. One manufacturer of the brand got sloppy and didn't replace or correct the soldering jig that positioned the bolt handle on the bolt body. That meant that the bolt handle did not contact the primary extraction cam in the back of the rear bridge and from that there was no extraction assistance available if a case got stuck.

The issue with the ruger appears to be different to this, so a different fix required? Needs a good going over the action with a fired case that has stuck and rechambering it to see where the issue lies. If it's a 3-lug bolt with 60deg bolt lift these can struggle with the primary extraction as not much rotation to 'pop' a tighter case free. The question is why are the cases being tight for one and two why they are popping free after a period of time by themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jhon

I'm open to what you are suggesting, but if the problem is common to the Ruger American, in different calibres, with factory ammo, how likely is it to be a brass resizing issue? I'd happily buy a small base die for my mate if I was certain that would resolve the issue. What I cant get my head around, thick as I am, is that a round that is incorrectly sized for a given chamber would show that with difficulty chambering. If a round is successfully and normally able to be chambered and fired, the brass THEN conforms to the chamber dimensions and so whatever size it went in as becomes irrelevant. Surely?

From experience with 9mm and 45acp reloading, incorrect resizing of brass causes malfunctions for chambering, not extraction once fired. I have a small base 9mm die I was sold when I bought my Shadow but have never used it as chambering has never been an issue with that particular handgun.

But if there is something diff I should know about a rifle chamber please educate me..seriously.

If.someone wants to risk lending me a small base 7mm-08 die I'd happily pay the postage. Or maybe I should just buy one. It won't solve the problem tho if it turns out factory ammo gives the same results.

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If you are wondering why the cartridges chamber OK but difficult to extract... physics textbook and the bit about Archimedes and levers/leverage.

After the case has fired, you don't always get sufficient brass springback if the fit was tight to begin with.

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Originally Posted by No.3

With the Rem M700's it's related to the primary extraction which is related to the location of the bolt handle in relation to the bolt lugs and the primary extraction cam at the back of the rear receiver bridge. One manufacturer of the brand got sloppy and didn't replace or correct the soldering jig that positioned the bolt handle on the bolt body. That meant that the bolt handle did not contact the primary extraction cam in the back of the rear bridge and from that there was no extraction assistance available if a case got stuck.

The issue with the ruger appears to be different to this, so a different fix required? Needs a good going over the action with a fired case that has stuck and rechambering it to see where the issue lies. If it's a 3-lug bolt with 60deg bolt lift these can struggle with the primary extraction as not much rotation to 'pop' a tighter case free. The question is why are the cases being tight for one and two why they are popping free after a period of time by themselves.

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Yes I am unfortunately very familiar with the 700s bolt timing issues and I wasn't suggesting the Ruger also had a bolt timing issue, just pointing out that this issue can be caused / exacerbated by weak primary extraction. The Ruger issue may well be a design flaw given the commonality on the internet. While maybe adjustable I doubt it would happen in and easy and timely manner, maybe costly or involve some arguing. As Iv said I'm suggesting trying a simple work around. If it works its cheap and easy. .