Cartridge suggestions

Greetings,
I've got a few requirements for a rifle and I'm feeling a bit lost in the rabbit hole of cartridge selection and was hoping for some guidance.
The rifle is primarily for hunting, at a guess 200 rounds to acclimatize to it and then 25 rounds a year so barrel life isn't super important. Target species is Sambar deer in Victoria Australia, which legally means .270/6.8mm or greater with a 130+ gr bullet. I'm not the greatest shot or experienced shooter so I prefer things with higher BC and velocity, just so I have to compensate less. For reasons I don't particularly want to get into I will be using monolithic copper rounds, which means I really want velocities above 2000 fps / 610m/s at 400m for reliable expansion (I know some bullet makers claim lower expansion velocities, but I like to keep it conservative). I'm not confident in my shooting at living things past 400m, and I prefer 200m but like having some potential to stretch it out if I ever get better :). I'd prefer less recoil, ideally sub 4.5 m/s in a 6 kg rifle. I will probably be using factory ammunition.

Calibers I'd considered were the .308, 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag and the 300 WSM and the 300 PRC, but frankly the last two seem a bit more than I really need and with more recoil than I'd like. I have a reasonable 6.5mm Creedmoor setup that I would be using if it was allowed legally, so I'd like the new gun to cover some different space/capability which is why I am less keen on the .308, not commenting on better/worse, just feel that it sits in a very similar space to the Creedmoor (likewise the 7mm-08). I know I should consider the .270....but there is just something...not sexy about it in my head. I completely expect many of you to tell me to get past that and get a .270 :)

Thanks for reading and I appreciate any thoughts you might have.

.308 or .30/06 will fill your needs nicely with a comprehensive range of projectiles available in the 150 - 180 grain range.

Welcome to the forum.
I would think a 300wsm would be the ticket for big sambar, the first 200 rounds would be expensive if buying factory ammo and save your brass for reloading if you go that route latter on.

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Originally Posted by Dusty Fog

ive chosen the 300wsm as my allround cartridge, am having to mentally adjust when using it but hey its a journey and a challenge

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you bet me to it.

Take a look at the 7x64 / 280 Rem 30/06 like the .308 case based cartridges on steroids with out the recoil , My pick would be the 7x64 with Norma ammo if factory is what
you will be shooting most.

300 RUM

Yup, a .300 magnum, the .300 WSM is my pick.

You need to revise your minimum impact velocity up from 2000 to 2400fps.

Copper bullets are notoriously fickle when it comes to sufficient resistance to generate the kind of 2x calibre expansion required to kill a big heavy deer. If you put it behind the shoulder then you got a good chance that it will zip straight through. You have a much higher chance of poor shot placement with copper bullets because they have a lower BC than decent hunting bullets, not only do they shed velocity, but they get fucked about by the wind something terrible. Especially the light for calibre ones.

You need to go as big and heavy and fast as you can handle for sambar at 300m+.

I suggest you sit down for an hour and run through a whole bunch of factory ammo offerings with a ballistic calculator and see for yourself how much velocity they shed and how they compare with windage. You will see that the .308 Winchester is very weak at 400m with a 165gr copper bullet.

I would really like to know why you are choosing copper for sambar when there are so many better bullets for 300-400m big deer.

300 WSM wi Limbsaver...job done !

Just grab the old standard Sambar cartridge the 30/06 ,killed more Sambar than any other over the years ,l have taken 8 with my Rem Mountain rifle in 06, but have used everything up to my 458M & the last stag l took was with my 325 WSM.

The 06 will do everything you want ,with easily found heavy loads as well if you want ,l just used proven over the counter 180grn Core Lokt & Barnes, Federal Bear Claw or Woodies & my favorite hand load was the 180gn Woodleigh, pushed along at just under 2800fps from memory ,these were both shoulders busters even on large stags, something important for anchoring them in the shitty, steep ,scrub they love. The loads were given to me by some of the top hound crews who have successfully hunted with them for years.


The 06 is also a fantastic performer with lighter bullets for everything else you have over there meaning you will get plenty of practice at off hand reflex shooting pigs etc which is a very important skill to have hunting Sambar in the bush & can only be gained with time behind the butt hunting.

I currently hunt with a 300WSM,300RUM & 300 Wby Mag & owned a 325WSM for years by all means get one if you want, but the 06 will do everything you want with a lot less kick & muzzle flash something that is often over looked as a lot of Sambar hunting ,when fast follow up shots in a sun blocked out forest will count. There is a reason l have used my 06 Mountain Rifle to hunt around the world with , it just works in the field with out any fuss.

Being that you are in Aussie and i dont believe you are able to use suppressors like we can here in NZ, If you are recoil sensitive, I would make sure you don't get a rifle that's too light, or look to make it heavier by putting weight into the stock.

Any sort of Magnum shooting a 160gr plus projectile in a standard hunting weight rifle is going to have recoil that most find pretty uncomfortable, here in NZ that's easily reduced by fitting an over barrel suppressor, something you won't be able to do. There are always muzzle breaks but they are not suitable for bush shooting situations.

Just something to think about...

For decent performance and availability of ammunition it is hard to go past the first cartridge listed, the .308. A non handloader runs the risk of having a rifle and no crackers at the most inappropriate times. Plenty of economical practise cartridges available too.
Grandpamac.

Thanks everyone, some new ideas to consider. Actually I'm currently in Canada hunting everything with the Creedmoor and quite happy with it for me and will continue to do so when I head back to NSW. But for over the border excursions I'll need something legal there. Sadly GHW is right about the suppressors, but then the same applies in Canada.

The following are my reasons and they work for me; your situation might be different and lead you to making other choices.
Copper:I hunt to eat and don't like lead in my food, I dont like the meat loss from lead bullets breaking up. Based on my North American experience I am also uneasy with the lead in gut piles, I know the science isn't conclusive but I feel better about not leaving it in the environment.

7mmRM, after many years a 308 user i wouldnt go back

I'd choose a 30 06.

They are all much the same I recently used a .243 and sacked red stags, two pigs @ 360yds 150&160lb, fallow buck and nothing walked more than 10meters. Chuck em in a hat and pull one out! but I’d say 30/06 that’s a fine caliber and a little less popular and it’ll fit your purpose ideally, chuck a Swarovski on top with a ballistic turret and you’ll never look back!

30-06. Can push a 150 mono pretty quick

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Pussy. :P

.338LM

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love the 338lap but how much power do you need in nz!!

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Originally Posted by gonetropo

love the 338lap but how much power do you need in nz!!

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Wash your mouth out.

40L60

7mm rem mag, 300 win mag and 300 WSM will be the best options for factory ammo availability.
The 270 win would also be good in this regard. 270wsm is another good but not quite as available option.

I'd avoid any of the standard short action cartridges if 400m and monolithic projectiles are involved, they just don't have the speed to work that well in my opinion.

Another one for the 30-06. Been around for yonks, lots of ammo choices, still outperforms a heap of other cartridges, and you can but over the counter ammo nearly anywhere.

.30/06 and the lead in meat thing...dont use stupidly soft projectiles....I normally shoulder shoot my deer with .270 and normally loose less than a cup full of meat....
tried copper jobbies and yeah nah....they killed but no better than std projectiles...being able to drop down in weight did allow less recoil.....so say a 130-140 in 30/06 wouldnt be bad option,but be aware there is hge difference between different mono projectiles even from same maker...some work heaps better than others.

9.3x62. Ok 400m shots may not be it’s forte, but anything within 200m is in a lot of trouble

well for my 2 cents worth, I'm a fan of speed and fragmentation in short action cartridges. so you have that covered with the 6.5 and 7m08 or 308 probably don't offer you anything more apart from ticking z government box.
You also stated factory ammo and copper. 3 ways to get s copper bullet to expand, velocity, diameter and bone/dense tissue.
at the ranges you talked about his puts you into long action or magnums.
So i would assume that limits you to caliber's like 7m RM, 30'06, 300 WM etc not that many if you want to get factory ammo.

looking at load data from Hornady with the copper 165gr 30cal even the 3006 barely gets you to 300 mtr. the 180gr does not improve the bc much for the speed loss if you want to stay in the 22-2400fps impact space.
or start reloading and step up the hole size to say a 35 Whelen with a 180-225 barnes bullet. Even if speed is down a bit the larger frontal area will do the business.
That will throw a 180gr at almost 2900 fps according to Hodgdons site.
so either 180 or 225 gr bullets are down to around 2000fps at 300mtr.
Z

.308, .30-06.

Unless you mostly hunt farm fringe, or specialise in LR ridge to ridge hunting, you don’t really need a .300 mag. Even more so if your not going to shoot a lot.
The big .300s take a bit to master and for general Sambar stalking 100 meters is a long shot. I like the 08, 06, or a .35W or 9.3. If I had to choose on the 06 is just so versatile.

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Originally Posted by tnankie

Greetings,
I've got a few requirements for a rifle and I'm feeling a bit lost in the rabbit hole of cartridge selection and was hoping for some guidance.
The rifle is primarily for hunting, at a guess 200 rounds to acclimatize to it and then 25 rounds a year so barrel life isn't super important. Target species is Sambar deer in Victoria Australia, which legally means .270/6.8mm or greater with a 130+ gr bullet. I'm not the greatest shot or experienced shooter so I prefer things with higher BC and velocity, just so I have to compensate less. For reasons I don't particularly want to get into I will be using monolithic copper rounds, which means I really want velocities above 2000 fps / 610m/s at 400m for reliable expansion (I know some bullet makers claim lower expansion velocities, but I like to keep it conservative). I'm not confident in my shooting at living things past 400m, and I prefer 200m but like having some potential to stretch it out if I ever get better :). I'd prefer less recoil, ideally sub 4.5 m/s in a 6 kg rifle. I will probably be using factory ammunition.

Calibers I'd considered were the .308, 7mm-08, 7mm Rem Mag and the 300 WSM and the 300 PRC, but frankly the last two seem a bit more than I really need and with more recoil than I'd like. I have a reasonable 6.5mm Creedmoor setup that I would be using if it was allowed legally, so I'd like the new gun to cover some different space/capability which is why I am less keen on the .308, not commenting on better/worse, just feel that it sits in a very similar space to the Creedmoor (likewise the 7mm-08). I know I should consider the .270....but there is just something...not sexy about it in my head. I completely expect many of you to tell me to get past that and get a .270 :)

Thanks for reading and I appreciate any thoughts you might have.

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Get a 7mm rem mag or 270 wsm and shoot 140-150ish grain bullets should be plenty for sambar at 400. less recoil than the big 30s

I emailed the OP’s question to my mate in Mansfield. He’s a sambar man who hunts both bush stalking style but also quite a lot of “overwatch” type hunting - fixed position, big field of view, glassing and longer range.

Unequivocal response: at longer range than normal stalking, on big sambar stags, copper bullets need weight, frontal area and speed. Pretty much exactly what @ZQLewis said. Plan for the biggest deer at the longest range you are willing to shoot it.

I have another mate in the Mitta Mitta who uses nothing but .30 cal magnums or 9.3x64, he shoots a lot of sambar deer in the bush at short range.

I think sometimes the guys can get a bit OTT about sambar being so big and tough because at the end of the day if you put a regular 30 cal hunting bullet into the engine room, it will stop the deer. I remember @Mooseman shot a cracking big stag with his 6.5x55 a couple of years ago. The difference with what most of us are used to and the OP’s question is the copper factor.

Up to him and his preferences but I would be very very wary of using copper at 400m without having thought through how best to get that bullet to expand to its maximum potential, and deliver the majority of its energy into the animal and not into the tree behind it. You only get one chance in that high country timber at longer range. I would be making a sensible decision on a powerful rifle and concentrating my efforts on developing a good dog!

Thanks everyone for your perspectives. Appreciate it.
Will be spending a bit more time with a ballistic calculator.
Maybe this will be the thing that tips me into hand loading...and as a few of you mentioned it would really simplify things if we could use suppressors in Oz.

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Originally Posted by mimms2

You have a 6.5CM and you're not "the greatest shot"?? You must be the only one on the planet. Creedmore gives you instant kills to 10,000 yards and brings the animal back dressed into cuts and chilled.


If you're shit at shooting the next gun you should buy is a .22LR and a bucket of ammo, and learn to shoot good.


After that, a 7-08 sounds like it might tickle your balls, without the hommosexual connotations of owning a .270

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Just so ou know, some of us choose to shoot .270 cal rifles, and have no discernible latent or blatant homo tendencies, because quite simply, it is a very efficient and effective round. Get an opinion you didn't download.

G'day,
If you want a sexy cartridge consider the .280ai.

I read about 7x64 and .280 being similar in capacity etc.

The .280ai is standardised and you can buy headstamped brass and factory dies.

Can pm me if you like.

.270 will do it, I have a .280ai and some of the Common chamberings.

The .280ai is close to 7rm performance with less recoil

If you want something a little different, classy, sexy or exotic or perhaps it prestige you are thinking of. I see why that's not a .270 but it's what works for you.

A 145 LRX out of a 7RM or .280AI would have to be pretty useful for the stated purpose without having brutal recoil. Dunno about right out to 400 but certainly close to 350.

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Originally Posted by mimms2

Vinegar indeed.
Download a sense of humour buddy. Try reading that line again, look for any glaring irony.

Also, .270 is for pussies.

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Easy at the keyboard, ain't it? Have you ever owned, shot or even seen a .270 anything? My sense of humour is fine,BUDDY. Just wondering how you formed your idiot opinion about people who choose who choose to use one of the most lauded calibers, ever. You can call me a pussy from your keyboard, or even a homo , if you like. Doesn't leave any more scars on me. I wonder if you'd say it to my face? Nah, probably not. You enjoy the 7mm08 tickling your balls, mate - I won't comment on that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tnankie

Thanks everyone for your perspectives. Appreciate it.
Will be spending a bit more time with a ballistic calculator.
Maybe this will be the thing that tips me into hand loading...and as a few of you mentioned it would really simplify things if we could use suppressors in Oz.

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No Suppressors in Australia, and definitely none for our state..
As far as copper projectiles go I have read a lot of great stuff on Hammer projectiles . A guy in Tassie can supply them But we also have Outer Edge and Woodleight in Australia.

On paper the 270, 7mmRM etc all look great. Its just that i have a very good mate that has done exactly what you are about to do. Thing is he constantly found issues losing animals with the medium to large cals. He
currently uses a 9.3x62 and seems happy with that. That's his experience anyway, he bought/sold his 308, 3006 finding them underpowered for the job. I don't think he tried the 7mmRM which i would have insisted (that's my pick personally)

Isn't that the 280 Rem. 3006 or the parent 3003 necked to 7mm.
Z

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Originally Posted by T.FOYE

On paper the 270, 7mmRM etc all look great. Its just that i have a very good mate that has done exactly what you are about to do. Thing is he constantly found issues losing animals with the medium to large cals. He
currently uses a 9.3x62 and seems happy with that. That's his experience anyway, he bought/sold his 308, 3006 finding them underpowered for the job. I don't think he tried the 7mmRM which i would have insisted (that's my pick personally)

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I'm not the only one on here that's killed Tahr and deer at 400yds with one shot and done, using .243. Your "mate" needs to learn animal anatomy and to shoot.

The answer is dual loads I'm afraid.
Run your coppers for majority of your hunting and a frangible cup and core for the odd long shot and accept some loss of meat for a clean kill.

My personal opinion, magnums without a suppressor are not the most pleasant things to shoot. Some don't mind but unless the rifle is heavy or you have a brake then the boot factor will be real.
I've never shot a sambar so I can't comment on what caliber really but I'd probably be more inclined to go for a 3006, 280ai or 270.