Fireforming case with cleaning patches and pistol powder

Has anyone tried fireforming cases with cleaning cloths/patches and pistol powder. I think i read it from nz hunter. Wondering what size of the patch and amount of power will achieve best results?

what is it you are trying to do ? expanding virgin brass to fit your chamber, or converting brass from one caliber to another ?

Yeah hundreds of times but it is not as good as hydraulic dies or just fire forming.
Maybe I was getting it wrong but I never achieved a perfect case with a patch or other type of filler.
Just used an M16 patch the little 1x1 square ones in front of AS30 or similar.
I also noticed real accuracy didn't show till the 3rd firing but it was good enough for hunting.
Got a hydraulic die thru a purchace of another rifle and it is easier and shoots well from the get go. All the money you will waste on components and time the hydraulic system pays for itself in my opinion with better results.

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Thanks guys, not sure why my initial reply didn't show up.
Most of my fireforming is just get new brasses (sometime necked down/up) to fit the chamber, before the load development starts. So using bullet/powder plus 50k drive sounds more and more expensive now. I do have rifle which need fireforming a parent case (30-30) to a wildcat case (7-30). My guess for latter more powder/larger patch are required?
I read in State they use cream of wheat method, but I think the cleaning patch sound less messy, and easy to get hold of for us.

Thanks

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Originally Posted by R93

Yeah hundreds of times but it is not as good as hydraulic dies or just fire forming.
Maybe I was getting it wrong but I never achieved a perfect case with a patch or other type of filler.
Just used an M16 patch the little 1x1 square ones in front of AS30 or similar.
I also noticed real accuracy didn't show till the 3rd firing but it was good enough for hunting.
Got a hydraulic die thru a purchace of another rifle and it is easier and shoots well from the get go. All the money you will waste on components and time the hydraulic system pays for itself in my opinion with better results.

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Thanks R93. yeah I read similar reports with cream of wheat method. Guess there isn't just enough pressure from those methods. Will look into hydraulic die thingy...

If you want good conformity of the brass to your chamber, you really want to use a projectile and get it jammed into the lands, so that the case base is tight against the bolt face. That way you get full expansion, crisp edges etc.

Make sure you are sitting down when you look at prices of hydraulic forming setups :D

I've used the cream of wheat method and a few others but I found just using a standard load the best they still shoot accurate and are good for steel shoots or hunting.

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Originally Posted by hey

Thanks R93. yeah I read similar reports with cream of wheat method. Guess there isn't just enough pressure from those methods. Will look into hydraulic die thingy...

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The hydraulic die is almost just as time consuming and a bit messy with water everywhere and you need to dry the cases in an oven or I use my dehydrator after forming. And to be fair I still don't get a perfect case but after resizing I get an accurate load from the get go and it is perfectly formed after the first time I fire it anyway.
I run 2 Ackleys and they both shoot better than I can with hydraulically formed brass. Other methods worked but it took a few loads to get them where I wanted them which was time and money in components. Was fun learning it all tho.

Forgot to mention that the hydraulic formed brass also showed better results on the radar with ES and velocity compared to other methods including fire forming with projectiles.
My barrels are a bit finicky and didn't shoot well with the projectiles I tried using jammed into lands. The same projectiles shot really well once seated correctly in a formed case.


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Thanks everyone! sounds I better stick to my usually fireforming routine. A quick tip from Mr MAX (our local gunsmith), if you neckturn the brass, the quicker you fireform it the longer brass will last ;)
efb, the price for hydraulic die isn't too bad. no worse than those overrated redding competition dies, https://www.hornady.com/reloading/dies/custom-dies#!/ . But I guess if you want the ultimate accuracy you might want provide them with your reamer...

hot barrels!

I’ve had really good success forming, for example, 30 Gibbs from either 270 or 30-06 brass using something like AR2205, oatbran as a filler and then stabbing the neck into a candle and breaking it off so you end up with a short wax ‘projectile’ (technique originally taught to me by the late Robbie Tiffen).

Two tips:

- if moving the shoulder forward (as per 30 Gibbs) neck up to something bigger and then down again leaving the false/partial (which will become the actual) shoulder a firm fit in the chamber;

- keep increasing your powder (I used about 18 grains of AR2205 in forming 30 Gibbs) until you get a good full form. Weak forming loads means powder will come back behind the neck/shoulder and present issues or you will have rounded shoulders etc.

Start very low with initial powder weights. If you don’t get a full form first time simply try again or your final loads with an actual projectile will soon sort things.

And having said all that, shouldn’t 7/30 just be a straight neck down of 30/30 brass in a FL die with no fire forming required- and I doubt neckturning unless you have a very tight chamber.

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

Ha, those overrated redding dies have been the easiest to set up for the best results from anything I've tried. They aren't magic but easy to use they sure are... In comparison the Hornady produce good concentric ammo, no issues apart from the horse power required on the press arm to drive them - insane. By comparison the redding dies are fingertip to achieve the same job, and that's brand new cleaned and tuned dies.

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lol, not sure it is the problem with hornady seating die. sounds very much like neck tension issue you got there Mauser308. Let me guess: Did you use those overrated reddings' competition deck sizing die for neck resizing? worse still, did you use the neck die with those overpriced-for-nothing titanium nitride bushing? where a single bushing costs the same amount as Lee's collect die, the best neck die available. I'll suggest you give the collect die a try and your seating problem will magically go away! :)

enjoy the weekend people

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Originally Posted by huntsika

I’ve had really good success forming, for example, 30 Gibbs from either 270 or 30-06 brass using something like AR2205, oatbran as a filler and then stabbing the neck into a candle and breaking it off so you end up with a short wax ‘projectile’ (technique originally taught to me by the late Robbie Tiffen).

Two tips:

- if moving the shoulder forward (as per 30 Gibbs) neck up to something bigger and then down again leaving the false/partial (which will become the actual) shoulder a firm fit in the chamber;

- keep increasing your powder (I used about 18 grains of AR2205 in forming 30 Gibbs) until you get a good full form. Weak forming loads means powder will come back behind the neck/shoulder and present issues or you will have rounded shoulders etc.

Start very low with initial powder weights. If you don’t get a full form first time simply try again or your final loads with an actual projectile will soon sort things.

And having said all that, shouldn’t 7/30 just be a straight neck down of 30/30 brass in a FL die with no fire forming required- and I doubt neckturning unless you have a very tight chamber.

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Thanks Huntsika! much appreciated of you insight, I'll give it a go. The 7/30 is kinda improved version of 30-30, has a shorter neck so you will need create a false shoulder first, very much like your 30 Gibbs.

Ive found the best method for all my wildcats/Ackley's etc is a full to the brim case of Trailboss then stab it into a candle to seal with a plug of wax. Most cases will form fully this way and its cheaper than fireforming with bullets.
Some of the thicker brass with 40 deg shoulders dont get supper sharp shoulders but they blow forward enough to head space properly for the first proper load which sharpens them up.

https://i.ibb.co/51P93BG/20190321-195125.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5W3LNLn/20190321-195218.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/gWGKDmb/20190409-152819.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/J3WZHR3/20191008-090134.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/xspwnBS/20190808-094827.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/KXTxtYR/20190810-093248.jpg

I tried all sorts of methods and the best for going from you 30 cal down to 7mm is just necking down the case but not all the way down to the shoulder / neck junction. If a donut ring is left at the base of the neck the case will be tightly held between the bolt face and donut. Just screw the die down a little at a time until the right point is found where cases chamber with a little bit of resistance on the bolt. Remember, with a push feed action the plunger ejector is pushing the case hard forward. If it is short in the chamber most of the stretch will occur at the web and can mean a case head separation - I know this from personal experience
So just load a normal (not hot) load in the trimmed and neck sized cases and shoot. In my 2506 AI a forming load is doing 3000 fps and a full power load is at 3250 so using the forming loads for hunting I dont see a difference

Excellent stuff, thanks Wingman! you have some interesting cartridges there. Is the last one 6mm dasher?

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Originally Posted by Moa Hunter

I tried all sorts of methods and the best for going from you 30 cal down to 7mm is just necking down the case but not all the way down to the shoulder / neck junction. If a donut ring is left at the base of the neck the case will be tightly held between the bolt face and donut. Just screw the die down a little at a time until the right point is found where cases chamber with a little bit of resistance on the bolt. Remember, with a push feed action the plunger ejector is pushing the case hard forward. If it is short in the chamber most of the stretch will occur at the web and can mean a case head separation - I know this from personal experience
So just load a normal (not hot) load in the trimmed and neck sized cases and shoot

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thanks Moa hunter. that's a good tip. I haven't been sizing 7-30 cases for long time, almost forgot how to do it. Seems the cases just last forever! BTW, my gun is a G2 contender so doesn't have a bolt, but I do remember I need force the action to close when load a fireforming case.

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Originally Posted by hey

Excellent stuff, thanks Wingman! you have some interesting cartridges there. Is the last one 6mm dasher?

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Yip 6mm dasher and .22 Shitstorm

I have a g1 and fire formed new 3030 to 7-30. Tried patches but didn't work great although I should have experimented more and most likely it would have. Instead I annealed the new brass then through the sizer but was half way through before I remembered to check the donut for head spacing while forming since it's an improved case so shoulder is going forward and you need it touching both ends of the case. So I just loaded into the lands a bit. I got some of shootenz cast bullets as I figured they are cheap and a light load of trailboss but not subsonic, around 1300fps did the job well and didn't have to worry about pressure being in the lands. I thought more gentle on the case since 3030 is so thin than a full power load to form. Have had no split necks and formed pretty well, the shoulders did slightly sharpen on the first full load but speed and accuracy were fine. It also gives you loads for practice, sub and shooting rabbits etc.

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Originally Posted by r87mm

I have a g1 and fire formed new 3030 to 7-30. Tried patches but didn't work great although I should have experimented more and most likely it would have. Instead I annealed the new brass then through the sizer but was half way through before I remembered to check the donut for head spacing while forming since it's an improved case so shoulder is going forward and you need it touching both ends of the case. So I just loaded into the lands a bit. I got some of shootenz cast bullets as I figured they are cheap and a light load of trailboss but not subsonic, around 1300fps did the job well and didn't have to worry about pressure being in the lands. I thought more gentle on the case since 3030 is so thin than a full power load to form. Have had no split necks and formed pretty well, the shoulders did slightly sharpen on the first full load but speed and accuracy were fine. It also gives you loads for practice, sub and shooting rabbits etc.

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Thanks r87mm, that's very good information there about forming 7-30 cases. Good to see a fellow contender 7-30 shooter here :)

Yeah I inherited it from who was to be my father in law. I take it as a just incase when walking rifle and make an attempt at least once a year to shot an animal out of respect for him with it I then let is wife know it's been out and being used and still doing what it did for him.
She seems to appreciate that it's being used as it should. Accounted for itself very admirably the other evening when a sow and 3 weaners came out where they weren't welcome. Least just say 4 rounds and 4 less pigs, a clean for the rifle and a txt to the mother in law. All three of us were happy.

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Originally Posted by r87mm

Yeah I inherited it from who was to be my father in law. I take it as a just incase when walking rifle and make an attempt at least once a year to shot an animal out of respect for him with it I then let is wife know it's been out and being used and still doing what it did for him.
She seems to appreciate that it's being used as it should. Accounted for itself very admirably the other evening when a sow and 3 weaners came out where they weren't welcome. Least just say 4 rounds and 4 less pigs, a clean for the rifle and a txt to the mother in law. All three of us were happy.

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Thanks r87mm, that is an awesome story. A very special gun indeed! I have to admit I have spent countless hours just to admire my contender. Elegant is the word for it.
Take care

Talking to his best mate he said he was an awesome shot with his old 3oh but not so flash in the beginning with the contender. He was a tall man probably 6'2"ish and the contender being so small especially with a 16" barrel. I noticed even me being a bit if a hobbit found it difficult to shoot easily. After a bit of thought I realised even with a low mounted 4x scope there was no cheek weld to speak of with the stock design.
Thinking this could be part of the problem I've recently made a cheek riser of about an inch and it seems to have made it much more consistent to shoot. Might be worth trying if ever you feel you're not shooting to the guns potential.

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Thanks for that. I think in G2 they used a higher cheek stock, which fixed the issue :)

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Originally Posted by Mauser308

Not the seater die, its the bloody Hornady full length sizer dies. Initially I was suspecting an almost full length jammed case and needing to get the case extractor out to sort me problem out, but never actually ended up jamming a case in the die. I took everything apart, cleaned and measured the lot suspecting I had an incorrect part in the works or an expander ball in the wrong place jamming the case, but no. It's both on the resize stroke and the extraction of the case where normally you are just pulling the neck over the expander ball. I tried a case with no expander stem or primer pin in place, no change so it is some weirdity with the die body. Air relief is clear, die is spotlessly clean and case is appropriately lubed shoulder and neck. Expander ball is set up in the right position so no jam up but for some random reason the down stroke requires more horse power than any other die I've used as well. This is to the point that some cases are at the strength limit of the press so that they aren't resizing the case enough to fit into the chamber. This is with .308win, and trying to get once-fired back into a SAAMI-minimum sporting chamber... Milsurp cases - forget it with the Hornady dies just requires too much horsepower to resize fully. Redding bushing die - up down job done no pressure needed the difference is extremely obvious.

It's weird - easiest answer is use another brand of die. Hence going to Redding competition dies, which just work screw in set height and size cases.

And those Lee dies, hmmmmm - good for a case stuck in the chamber in my experience - .22Hornet in a ZKW465 once fired and collect die every time pop out with the cleaning rod. Full length die no issue...

The bushing sizing dies by comparison caliber for caliber, I'm getting under 1thou runout and in most cases less than 1/4thou which is really the limit of my ability to measure things with the flex in the setup as you rotate the case, so as good as the collet die or better and total control of the process. I'm using the full length bushing die with a set of competition shellholders so total control of all dimensions with simple part changes once set. Sizing is mostly neck only with the die set to bump the should only as needed - the only additional steps I have are separate depriming and primer seating (i dropped the deprimer stem out of the die which removes most of the issues). The only other sizing related problem that I have found once is a fat case head.

The bonus with this setup is the fact that without the bushing in you have a fully effective body die and in the odd time you get a case that doesn't resize properly and won't chamber strip the bushing die and can tap the shoulder back on a loaded round. Just done this on a couple of rounds loaded for another rifle - I know what the load is but the cases were sized for an older rifle that's now gone and were too long to fit a SAAMI-minimum chamber. Easy fixed with a body die - which I just happened to have haha.

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Thanks for sharing your story Mauser308. I did notice different dimension variations with different brand of full length resizing dies, some are tighter than others, probably that cause the resizing issue, especially with those older cases. personally I don't use full body resize if I can, as I believe the expansion button distort the concentric of the neck. well, I usually use a reddding's body die here (cheap!), and leave the neck resizing to collect.
have a great weekend

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Originally Posted by Wingman

Ive found the best method for all my wildcats/Ackley's etc is a full to the brim case of Trailboss then stab it into a candle to seal with a plug of wax. Most cases will form fully this way and its cheaper than fireforming with bullets.
Some of the thicker brass with 40 deg shoulders dont get supper sharp shoulders but they blow forward enough to head space properly for the first proper load which sharpens them up.

https://i.ibb.co/51P93BG/20190321-195125.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5W3LNLn/20190321-195218.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/gWGKDmb/20190409-152819.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/J3WZHR3/20191008-090134.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/xspwnBS/20190808-094827.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/KXTxtYR/20190810-093248.jpg

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Wingman this is excellent info. Would you say this is a viable method to try when going from 243Win to 243 Ackley with new factory brass? (Don't worry, all care no responsibility mate it's all on me). Also is this method messy? Needs cleaning roughly how often in your experience?
I bought a bottle of Bullseye and was going to try the "70% of total case capacity Bullseye and toilet paper plug" method but I am pretty impressed with your trailboss results. Thanks again.Luke

No mess at all, the wax vaporizes.
Will work fine on the .243AI. You cant put enough trailboss in a case even with a heavy bullet seated to get any kind of dangerous pressure, youd be lucky to get 1200fps with a 100gr bullet with a full case of trailboss. Not the case with pistol powder however, about 10gr of AP70 or similar would be about the same pressure as a full case of Trailboss. In the .243 case that's about 14gr.

Buy a hydraulic forming die. It will pay for itself in no time and save heaps on components and mess.
Wish I bought one earlier instead of using every other fire forming process.

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Originally Posted by R93

Buy a hydraulic forming die. It will pay for itself in no time and save heaps on components and mess.
Wish I bought one earlier instead of using every other fire forming process.

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Do you have a ballpark on cost for one of the hydraulic forming dies? I worry a bit about hammering on my press.... Apart from that it seems like a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Luke777

Do you have a ballpark on cost for one of the hydraulic forming dies? I worry a bit about hammering on my press.... Apart from that it seems like a good idea.

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Around $170 usd for a whidden gunworks one. Hornady make them as well iirc. I hear ya on the worry, but I havent had any issues.
I form mine and run them thru the resizing die and they shoot as good the first load as the rest. When fire forming it took 1 or 2 loads to get where they should be....but I am a bit pedantic[emoji16]

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Originally Posted by R93

Around $170 usd for a whidden gunworks one. Hornady make them as well iirc. I hear ya on the worry, but I havent had any issues.
I form mine and run them thru the resizing die and they shoot as good the first load as the rest. When fire forming it took 1 or 2 loads to get where they should be....but I am a bit pedantic[emoji16]

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It pays to be pedantic mate.
Their website (I just looked now) is quoting 3-4 months lead time on a die after they get the schematics and payment... That's a long wait.... Still, I'll think about it.

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Originally Posted by Luke777

It pays to be pedantic mate.
Their website (I just looked now) is quoting 3-4 months lead time on a die after they get the schematics and payment... That's a long wait.... Still, I'll think about it.

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That's odd needing schematics?
I have a whidden in 260 Ackley.

243 will be the close enough to the same.
I would email them and see if it can be done faster.


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I was looking at this a month or so back. Whidden want a schematic or 3 cases whilst Hornady seem to infer they want both the schemical and cases.

Was looking at what I'll do when my current cases kark it. Had to cull a few more the other day for loose primer pockets.
Suspect that when all my cases are buggered that will coincide with the barrel being toast.

Hi huntsika,
Im just starting a 30 Gibbs project.Have you got any advice on where i could get a reamer and or gauges in NZ.
Thanks
Mark.