Hangfires with reduced loads

Hi all,
Relatively new to the forums but have already benefitted greatly from the store of knowledge here!

Last weekend I did some load development at the range (thanks again @gadgetman) and had some interesting results. The aim was to find a lighter bullet/lower velocity load to give my partner's son a pleasant introduction to centrefire rifle shooting. Thanks to @257weatherby I had some different projectiles to play with.

I had researched the idea thoroughly and had decided to use AR2206H due to the ability to load to 60% of max load (look up reduced loads with H4895/AR2206H). Even if it didn't work well at lower levels it seems a good choice in my 6.5 Creedmoor for 90 to 100 grain class bullets at normal book levels.

I loaded some rounds starting at 26 grains and going up by a grain at a time to 34 grains. Overall length with 100gr Eld was 2.650 to ensure projectile was sufficiently held by the neck meaning they had a sizable jump to the lands.

26 grains showed good initial grouping and were very mellow to shoot. The fun started at 27 onwards - at least 1 of 3 in each progression did the dreaded click-boom. And then at 34 grains no more hangfires. Tried 3 more groups at 32.5, 33.5 and 34.5 as groups seemed to improve between 32 and 33. 34 grouped the same as 33 around 30mm.

After doing some more reading around the issue I think the factors contributing are likely to be:
Low neck tension (Lee collet die)
Light projectile for calibre
Long jump to lands
Relatively low case fill (though over half full)

Other relevant info:
Lapua once-fired cases
CCI 450 primer
Howa1500 rifle

Has anybody else experienced anything similar? Any thoughts on where to go from here? My thought is to go back to the book minimum and start developing from there. And go buy a 223 😀

Reducing loads can be problematic for a few reasons
If the powder dose not fill the case and there is to much room in the case when the cartridge is lying flat in the rifle the powder is not up against the primer
Causing delayed ignition can also Cause flash over where the powder ignite’s from both the back and the front of the powder and burns both ways this can be very dangerous and it Severe cases can blow the gun up

I think some people Some full the case with something other than powder (cream of weat)
But ideally you want to find a powder that fulls the case as best possible while still producing reduced velocity
This information is all researched but ive never bothered loading reduced loads myself

A 100gn load full noise in a 6.5cm would be pretty nice to shoot anyway without needing to reduce the change
Even better supressed if you’re gun is supressed just load up some 100gn and see what he thinks of those

If that’s still to much it might be a good excuse to buy him/yourself a 223 or similar

You could try switching to Trailboss, that will fill the case and stop the hangfire. Velocity will be low as well.

I got reduced loads made up for .270win years ago and they didnt go click boom they went ba-boom UNLESS we did the old black powder trick and pointed muzzle skyward then lowered down and fired...duplicated same loads myself years later without issues... trail boss is your friend for reduced loads.gunworks have it and probably still do wee sample pottles (if you ask nicely) that will do 40ish loads. hangfires etc will create a flinch etc quick smart and ruins confidence.magnum primer MIGHT fix it but as youve worked past the bad range and are getting up to better fill ratio you should be past having issues. there are great varmint type projectiles for the 6.5 cal so go light and fastish and issue wont have a chance to be there.

One round did not ignite the powder. On pulling the projectile the powder was still there but the tail of the projectile was sooty black.

I'd load them up to a full noise round using that lighter projectile. If TR can use her 7mmRM I don't think your lad will have any issues.

Trail boss is great stuff Velocity low probably to low for what you’re after like subsonic low
But it is really really good stuff

Cheers for the advice. I had considered Trail Boss, but figured it was going to give much lower velocities rather than just a less booty load.

The Howa is suppressed which makes it really nice to shoot. It isn't too bad at all.

It may well be that the lad just doesn't care about the recoil etc. I just wanted to see if I could achieve something a bit different. And go shoot my new rifle of course!

I've got some 95 gr V-MAX to try already and I'll probably get some of the 90gr Speer TNT to try as well. If I can get those to shoot as well as the 140gr ELD-Ms do I'll be well impressed.

if you want to use light loads with 2208, maybe use magnum primers and use dacron to keep the powder down at the base of the case.

But for lighter loads, as others have said, trail boss is the best and probably the safest option

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelisreal

Cheers for the advice. I had considered Trail Boss, but figured it was going to give much lower velocities rather than just a less booty load.

The Howa is suppressed which makes it really nice to shoot. It isn't too bad at all.

It may well be that the lad just doesn't care about the recoil etc. I just wanted to see if I could achieve something a bit different. And go shoot my new rifle of course!

I've got some 95 gr V-MAX to try already and I'll probably get some of the 90gr Speer TNT to try as well. If I can get those to shoot as well as the 140gr ELD-Ms do I'll be well impressed.

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mate is having awesome results with them on wallabies and has knocked over a couple of fallow and reds with them too. varmit pills not super fast have been used like this for ever.

Ooops double post...

I'm already using magnum primers (CCI 450) which work an absolute treat with the 140gr/AR2209 load.

I did a whole bunch of research on yankie websites earlier in the year to suss out some decent reduced loads for both my 260 rem and 7mm08, for mrs and kids etc.

The general consensus was that the H4895 doesnt work that well (loading down to a min of 60% of the max load for any cartridge that has H4895 load data).

And then i spoke with a chap in the US, that got the load data for the factory remington reduced recoil loads, and they used 30gr of IMR4198 behind a 120gr bullet. I did some initial testing in both 260 and 7mm08 at around the 30-32 gr mark, and was getting about 2200-2400 fps velocity in both cartridges.

I also tested the H4895 reduced loads in each rifle, and the IMR4198 reduced loads were way more consistant with far better grouping. I had no such issues with hangfires.

The 6.5CM is not too disimilar to a 260 rem really, im picking you may be able to use the IMR4198 in that too, but it'd pay to do some more homework first.

Thought about IMR 4759?

Yep I had considered the IMR SR4759 as it kept popping up as a good option in reduced loads for medium capacity cases. In the end I went with the 2206 as it would happily work for normal full power loads with varmint weight bullets. I like the idea of a 90 grain projectile at 3200+ FPS for zapping wallabies and bunnies ��

All the research did indicate that a faster powder like 4198 (AR2207) would likely work well, bit there wasn't a lot of data around for it. Thanks for the info @GWH, I will look in to it some more.

The other factor in all of this was that I've had a fairly erratic income over the last few months so I've not been able to spend much on fun stuff. Hence when I decided to but powder it had to be good for more than one purpose.

Happily I've now got a new job that should allow me to delve deeper in to trying out different things on the reloading bench. And buy a reloading bench ��

just buy a cheap 223
You should be able to get a single shot cheap or a cheap Norinco or something like a savage axis if you’re willing to drop a little more
Or a mate willing to lend you one
Buy 100 rounds of shitty steel case 55 gn ammo
And a cheap scope
After shooting that for abit he should be able to progress to your 6.5cm without the need for reduced loads
If you look after the 223 you won’t lose much money selling it and the fun it gave would sure make up for any loss

That’s what id do

I will definitely get a 223 at some point in the future. Luckily a mate has just bought a nice wee 223 that I might be able to convince him to lend me for a bit.

Worth looking at this article, praising the old Hercules, now Alliant #2400 powder for reduced rifle loads. Main observation of author is that for some reason #2400 is not sensitive to position in the case, no kapok wadding required etc. He is talking of the universal .30 rifle load though - not 6.5mm or smaller bores.

Cast Bullet Loads for Military Rifles - Article

Id just add fillers like dacron, kapok or creamed wheat would be bad with a supressor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GWH

I did a whole bunch of research on yankie websites earlier in the year to suss out some decent reduced loads for both my 260 rem and 7mm08, for mrs and kids etc.

The general consensus was that the H4895 doesnt work that well (loading down to a min of 60% of the max load for any cartridge that has H4895 load data).

And then i spoke with a chap in the US, that got the load data for the factory remington reduced recoil loads, and they used 30gr of IMR4198 behind a 120gr bullet. I did some initial testing in both 260 and 7mm08 at around the 30-32 gr mark, and was getting about 2200-2400 fps velocity in both cartridges.

I also tested the H4895 reduced loads in each rifle, and the IMR4198 reduced loads were way more consistant with far better grouping. I had no such issues with hangfires.

The 6.5CM is not too disimilar to a 260 rem really, im picking you may be able to use the IMR4198 in that too, but it'd pay to do some more homework first.

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This sounds like the answer to me. I tried Trail Boss for sub loads but found it gave too great of a velocity spread.

moa hunter the issue I have with that often stated opinion about trail boss is this...... you use trail boss to create a low velocity load for short range work,reduced recoil and subsonic...so you are in effect hamstringing yourself VOLENTERALY to sub 100 yards......at sub 100 yards who gives a flying faaark about velocity spread??? it doesnt matter unless you are trying to headshoot.... trail boss was made for cowboy action shooting eg it replaces black powder.... 25-75yards the difference in drop with 50fps velocity difference is stuff all.... for sub loads to plink or shoot stuff at sub 50 yards with cast projectiles it is the ducks nuts and super easy to load using lee spoons.

Trailboss doesn't just give subsonic velocity. It will give velocities in the 1400-1700fps range depending on cartridge and projectile.

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Originally Posted by stug

Trailboss doesn't just give subsonic velocity. It will give velocities in the 1400-1700fps range depending on cartridge and projectile.

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Likewise for black powder.

How bad is TB for velocity spread? It may explain why I'm a crap shot...

excuses excuses.....maybe I will try black powder instead...how does it go through a suppressor???

Good to see a thread and advice on lighter loads and the dangers that exist - normally its all about overloading. Good stuff.

Here is some very interesting pages from Finland on Cat's Sneeze / Mouse Fart loads, from 1999. Also some very interesting other stuff. Recommended.

Deals with the desirability of fast pistol type powders, and danger of detonation and barrel chamber rupture from using too small loads!. Really counterintuitive so could catch you out.

Gunwriters' Handloading Subsonic Cartridges, Part 1
Gunwriters' Handloading Subsonic Cartridges, Part 2
Gunwriters' Handloading Subsonic Cartridges, Part 3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micky Duck

excuses excuses.....maybe I will try black powder instead...how does it go through a suppressor???

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@Micky Duck

Not sure how BP goes through a suppressor. It will enter it all right.

Use "fast" pistol black powder for your reduced loads, as per Finnish link.

well that took some reading.....a few we gems hidden in there including something shootersnz and I have discussed before.....the lenght of barrel VS sound/velocity it confirms what Ive always thought...a longer (than normal/optimal) barrel is slower/quieter the theory as explained in link is the gas pressure generated will push projectile for so far (say 16") along barrel and AFTER that distance its no longer being pushed so is slowing down with friction on rifling and gets quieter (this bit was an eye opener) as the explosion has room to happen so doesnt all happen out the end of muzzle.......how a suppressor works..

this explains why someone with a say 24" barreled .308 will get subsonic load with MORE powder than someone with a say 14" barrel and the 14" barrel developed load will be very slow in longer barrel (and why I am using such a pitiful small amount in my 7.62x39mm with oversized short barrel--stuff all resistance)

Brief update: Had a look at the rifle and cases from the reduced loads yesterday - the bolt face was very sooty. The cases also had some carbon/soot in the extractor groove as clearly they aren't obturating properly with the sub-minimum loads.

Thanks @Cordite for the links - a bit of light reading post-work!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steelisreal

Brief update: Had a look at the rifle and cases from the reduced loads yesterday - the bolt face was very sooty. The cases also had some carbon/soot in the extractor groove as clearly they aren't obturating properly with the sub-minimum loads.

Thanks @Cordite for the links - a bit of light reading post-work!

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@Steelisreal

Just don't size the cases for a mini-load, perhaps even don't resize the case necks - less obturation required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grantp

Good to see a thread and advice on lighter loads and the dangers that exist - normally its all about overloading. Good stuff.

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Under loading is wayy more dangerous than over loading
Because over loading will give you warnings that you’re pushing your luck
Undloading in some cases will to but in other cases such as a flash over for example the 1st 5 could be fine then on the 6th karboomfa rifle in bits A friend of a friend Detonated his sako a few months back with a reduced load gone worng

Re Trail boss velocities. In my 243 with a 1:8 twist I can drive my 105/108 gr VLd's subsonic with about X gr. (1050 fps) or with XX gr I can drive a 58 gr Vmax at 2300 fps. I can put in up to 14 gr and drive the 105's at about 1700 fps.

Sorry about the X's but my note book is in the shed and I don't want to get it wrong. I know I have gone as light as 8 gr but I'm reluctant to drop much under 10 gr.
Zq

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stug

Trailboss doesn't just give subsonic velocity. It will give velocities in the 1400-1700fps range depending on cartridge and projectile.

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Thanks for that info. That is something I didn't know and had never been told before, but now explains my results. The problem I had with velocity spread re Mickey Duck above for subs is that some loads will go trans sonic and noisey while others are completely suppressed and quiet. Makes it very difficult to get the right load going.

@Moa Hunter

I scoop measure powder and find TB somewhat irritating - taking flight when you level the scoop. One could look for a narrow-mouth, relatively tall scoop to minimise fly-off variation, but then you have problems scooping with it!

Bottleneck cases are better as there is less variation from this phenomenon - I stand them up in a cup and pour TB over them from an old flip-top ketchup bottle until filled, then level flat and pour into the destination cases. This also avoids compression variation then from how you scooped the TB into the measure as you don't scoop at all.

Could buy an adjustable powder dispenser of course, but I heard TB can be temperamental with them.

I use the lee scooper for my trail boss loads,haven’t died yet.

I use lee scoop AND THEN WEIGH...the beauty of them is getting your start point...you use SAME spoon you would use for your regular powder....funny as heck cause its the same one I use in 7.62x39mm and same for .223 as well....
your STARTING load is by VOLUME NOT WEIGHT and you reduce from there.....sort of works out your first load will be 80-90% full case it will be supersonic usually.